Author Topic: Running deer with dogs  (Read 1574 times)

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Offline ronbow

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Running deer with dogs
« on: October 11, 2005, 08:19:19 AM »
What do you think about using dogs to "hunt" deer. Here in Florida dog "hunters" surround a section of land in their CB radio equipped trucks, let the dogs go and roar around to where the dogs are baying. Then if a deer (maybe even a legal one) runs they pepper it with buckshot.

Offline Redhawk1

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« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2005, 09:14:37 AM »
If it is legal, what is there to say. Some may not like it or agree with it. But not everyone has to participate in it.  :D
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Offline Dave in WV

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Running deer with dogs
« Reply #2 on: October 11, 2005, 01:15:30 PM »
Quote

"If it is legal, what is there to say. Some may not like it or agree with it. But not everyone has to participate in it."

Redhawk1 you are correct to a point. My son lives in NC and there are two different kinds of hunters that use dogs. One type has a group they hunt with and it's a social gathering as well as a hunt in a true southern tradition. The other type are slob hunters that think all the game is theirs and if you happen to get a deer even if their dogs weren't running it it is still theirs. The second group is causing less and less tolerance of hunting deer with dogs.
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Offline Lawdog

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« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2005, 01:46:00 PM »
I California it’s legal to hunt deer with dogs, one dog per hunter.  Mostly these dogs are well trained dogs of special breeding.  Although you won’t find them in any AKC registry, you can trace their lineage back 50 - 100 years.  I have seen many a 12 week(+/-) old pup go for $1,000.00 plus.  I have hunted with these guys and while I don’t care for running deer with dogs(don’t like my deer overheated before I shoot them) I can see why they use them to get deer out of some of the heaviest brush you can ever imagine.  The dogs are trained to try to herd the deer to the hunters not just chase them.  Mostly these hunters are the salt of the earth types.  The kind that if they see you broke down on the side of the road they stop to help.  Yes we have our share of slob hunters but they usually don’t last long.  Usually they loose their dogs(dogs become wild(feral dogs)) because they don’t know how to train them to come back after a run.  Slob hunters usually don’t last long either.  They usually find out the hard part of hunting and find a different sport.  Lawdog
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Offline Wynn

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« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2005, 02:49:35 PM »
I hunt in Florida on a private lease where members are both still hunters and dog hunters. Nothing like what Ronbow described happens at our club. Hunters surround a specific block, usually a deep swamp and designated handlers take the dogs into the area and start them on a trail. The dogs have different jobs. The initial lead dog is a jump dog that can wind a deer. As soon as the deer is up and if the handlers determine that it is a legal deer, the running hounds take over. Then the lead dog is usually a experienced nose trail hound. These dogs hunt with their nose to the ground. They are usually a great distance behind the deer and it will usually lead them casually in circles of up to a couple miles. The deer will back trail often, Take huge leaps in a sideways direction and I have seen them lay down and hide in water a couple of feet deep and let the dogs run right over the top of them. I have also seen them stop, start feeding and let the dogs catch up. This can go on for hours and less experienced dogs often go off trailing coons or Armadillos. That is why a good lead dog is critical. Once in a great while , the deer will actually break cover and head for the next block. You may or may not get your shot. Our dog hunts resulted in only two kills all last season, but the fun and camaraderie are part of our heritage. Anyone who knocks Southern dog hunting are usually observers who don't have a clue what its about. By the way; just to make it even tougher, a legal deer on our lease must be 6 points or better or its a $250 fine.
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Offline Graybeard

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« Reply #5 on: October 11, 2005, 05:51:04 PM »
I HATE IT! I HATE IT! I HATE IT!  Yes I was shouting.  :eek:  Wish it would end every where. BUT by hunter's choice NOT by being out lawed.

When and where legal and when done in accordance with the law I'll support the folk's ability to do it even tho I HATE IT!

My biggest concern with it tho is darn few of the folks I see doing it are doing it legally. I've seen more law violations by folks hunting deer with dogs than all other violations of law seen by me in my whole life. There is never a game warden around to do anything about it then either.


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Offline Redhawk1

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« Reply #6 on: October 12, 2005, 01:21:33 AM »
Quote from: Graybeard
I HATE IT! I HATE IT! I HATE IT!  Yes I was shouting.  :eek:  Wish it would end every where. BUT by hunter's choice NOT by being out lawed.

When and where legal and when done in accordance with the law I'll support the folk's ability to do it even tho I HATE IT!

My biggest concern with it tho is darn few of the folks I see doing it are doing it legally. I've seen more law violations by folks hunting deer with dogs than all other violations of law seen by me in my whole life. There is never a game warden around to do anything about it then either.


You said what I wanted to. I support it but don't agree with it.
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Offline John R.

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Running deer with dogs
« Reply #7 on: October 12, 2005, 04:10:31 AM »
I hunt in the hills of Mississippi on a private lease. Our club runs dogs but you do not have to participate if you don't want to (you can go still hunting). Most of the time I still hunt ,but when the weather turns cold its fun to hear the dogs on the deers trail. We also have a lot of thick cutover that you can't see 15 yds. in and it takes a dog to get the deer out of there. I don't support slob hunting of any kind ,but as long as those old guys get a kick out of hearing their dogs run I don't see what it hurts. (We kill a lot more deer still hunting than they do running dogs anyway.) :grin:

Offline schunter1128

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« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2005, 05:12:59 AM »
My quality mgmt still hunt club is constantly tresspassed on by dogs from neighboring dog clubs. I personally have returned 3 dogs this year already. Pretty pityful looking animals. Very thin.  :(

Offline wijim

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Running deer with dogs
« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2005, 08:52:48 AM »
im not a dog hunter of anything, but will and would always support traditions and cultural differences among our hunting brothers n sisters.  i mean....i have hunted from stands, still hunted, spot n stalked, hunted with bow, hunted with rifle.......heck i have my favorite methods, but who am i tell my neighbor what his favorite methods oughta be.

if i grew up in a houndsman family......id probably be a houndsman.

Offline obxmike

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Running deer with dogs
« Reply #10 on: October 17, 2005, 01:26:08 PM »
What GB said goes 2x for me!!  I live for black powder season because the dogs aren't running everything crazy yet. To me, it's like fishing with hook and line vs. fishing with a trawl net. You lose the satisfaction of besting your quarry...being more stealthy, getting closer, watching, waiting.....IOW, being a HUNTER!!!
What REALLY bugs the #@$*! out of me is when the dogs get on our land that we protect and groom for healthy deer and run them out onto the neighboring land to get whacked by some bobo sitting in the bed of his pickup truck drinking beer and munching a whopper!!!
Can you FEEL the angst??

I need a woods walk!!!
Mike

Offline Graybeard

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Running deer with dogs
« Reply #11 on: October 17, 2005, 05:42:20 PM »
Just remember the three S's. Works real well in situations like yours.


Bill aka the Graybeard
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Offline ronbow

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« Reply #12 on: October 18, 2005, 03:40:07 AM »
Gawd it's great to know I got company. I live and hunt here in Northeast Fla. where the doggers outnumber us still hunters. I bow hunt, black powder hunt and general gun hunt in the Osceola National Foresy and other public management areas. The general gun hunt si also dog running season. Of course there are designated still hunt areas and seperate dog areas. The still hunt area (no matter how far from the dog areas) is constantly overrun by dogs and doggers racing through the area trying to catch the hounds. God help you if you are driving past the dogger trucks and a deer runs out, the buckshot will be flying. I don't care how much a hound costs or how organized a hunt is the dogs will run whereever their nose takes them. Which ruins a nice quiet still hunt. By the way where I hunt the dogs look better than most of the doggers and appear to be more intelligent also.

Offline dicaela

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Running deer with dogs
« Reply #13 on: October 18, 2005, 09:37:26 AM »
Well, I guess thats one nice thing we've got here in Upstate New York, dogs are prohibited for deer hunting.

Offline flintlock

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« Reply #14 on: October 18, 2005, 10:07:22 AM »
I don't care how other people hunt...As long as they don't disturb my hunting....Dog hunting is so out of control in eastern NC that I usually take off the week of muzzleloading just so I can hunt my family farms and not put up with a bunch of deer dogs running deer on my property and ruining my hunt..

I looked into the three Ss....would you believe it is a felony in NC...I know that you have to get caught...but they have tracking collars on the dogs...kinda makes it tougher....I still have a feeling in the right situation I'll get my licks in....On top of all that its legal in eastern NC to spotlight (look at only) deer until 11:00 pm....So these jokers ride around and look for bucks in fields on land that they don't own or have rights to hunt...and drop 15-20 dogs off on the side of the road the next morning...no matter if you are in a tree still hunting....they don't care....Forget calling the game warden...he has been called time and time again...he is usually an hour away...Like they said on "Top Gun" ...Heck...this fight will be over in 3 minutes....within 30 minutes they can run every deer off your property....If you aren't there they will go around gates, through crops, ride 4wheelers through...anything for a stupid deer ....Yep I HATE THEM TOO!!!!!!

We have 3 family farms in Gates County...its been a problem for over 30 years...only way it will stop is to outlaw it....The slob dog hunters don't own any land, they get a piece of land in one block and have their run with it....If you go to the Club president he says "the dogs can't read"...To these guys its a big game...but...Their days are numbered...and they are doing it to themselves...

Offline jhm

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« Reply #15 on: October 18, 2005, 12:19:47 PM »
Did someone say Tracking colars?  Dont they opperate on REMOVABLE batteries?  Humm lost signal means lost colar and whatever it was atached to. :grin:    JIM

Offline John R.

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« Reply #16 on: October 19, 2005, 03:34:27 AM »
Surely you guys don't advocate shooting the dog. He's only doing what he was trained to do. (Now the owner that puts them out next to somebody else's land is another story :) ) If a dog comes on our land with no collar its fair game,but I would never shoot someones pet or deer dog that was wearing a collar.

Offline Idaho_Hick

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« Reply #17 on: October 19, 2005, 06:05:10 AM »
If I had a legal chance to run hounds after deer, I would try it.

Running deer with dogs is illegal here in Idaho, but we still have slob hunters.  Some even hunt archery and muzzleloading seasons.  I think you will find them everywhere and in every hunting sport.  Well, actually, I have never met a falconer? who I would think of as a slob hunter, but I bet there is at least one.

Offline victorcharlie

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« Reply #18 on: October 19, 2005, 08:41:49 AM »
Quote from: John R.
Surely you guys don't advocate shooting the dog. He's only doing what he was trained to do. (Now the owner that puts them out next to somebody else's land is another story :) ) If a dog comes on our land with no collar its fair game,but I would never shoot someones pet or deer dog that was wearing a collar.


Most serious beaglers, coon hunters, and bird hunters view running "off game" a serious flaw.  One of the problems is that during the period when there were few deer (after say 1930) the AKC rule book was revised  and states that a beagle is a multi purpose hound and cannot be ordered up for running game other than rabbit.  Now, however, there are more deer than rabbits.  There is nothing more miserable for a hounds owner than to see the hounds take off on a fox, deer, etc.  This disrupts the rabbit hunt and now it turns into a dog hunt.....trust me, if a hound can smell a rabbit and run without loss, they can light up a deer and be out of hearing range in less than a minute!  I've gotten one hound back 25 miles from where I turned him loose!  A deer will usually make a fairly short circle, then leave the country if it hasn't shook the hounds.........5 miles is nothing on a deer chase especially if several hounds are involved.  This problem has changed the type of dog and the way the dog are bread to hunt.  With so many deer, I like my hounds to hunt very close to me.  I also like a slower hound than what I had before the deer became so prolific.  I also cast fewer dogs than in the past, with 4 hounds being the norm........Years ago, myself and friends would cast 20 to 25 hard driving tall hounds and push a rabbit very quickly to the gun........Well, if 25 hard driving fast hounds get after a deer, their gone in 60 seconds.

I've owned hounds I'd bet wouldn't run deer.....then, several years later, for no apparent reason, the hound decided the deer smelled to good not to chase.....this usually happens when rabbits are hard to come by and after a long time of looking the dogs are much more likely to run off game...Lots of us dual field trialer/hunters, have asked the AKC to make this a serious flaw that deserves immediate elimination.......and something that shouldn't be bread to without this being known.  Most of us are trying to breed this out of our hounds, but have only meet with limited success......

Some of these fellows have spent huge amounts of money and time on their dogs........I myself, after having lost dogs on deer, have bought "electronic training devices" to be politically correct in order to try and correct the problem.  I can't make the hounds not run "off game", but I can sure make them wish they hadn't.

Several years ago, just after the beginning of the modern AKC small pack option gun dog movement, a very rare Field Champion was shot by a bow hunter.  The dog was never know to run deer and was rumored to have sold to the current owner for $10,000.   That dog was rumored to have bread over 500 bitches and brought a high stud fee........

I guess what I'm asking is that you think before pulling the trigger on a hound.........He just might be very valuable to someone.........
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Offline ronbow

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« Reply #19 on: October 19, 2005, 09:02:20 AM »
VICTORCHARLIE, The little time I have to hunt is very very valuable to me and the time I spend on preseason scouting is also. As much as I hate dogging I can't bring myself to shoot a hound. Spike the doggers roads maybe. So what exactly are the three S's ?

Offline Lawdog

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« Reply #20 on: October 19, 2005, 09:28:16 AM »
Quote
Surely you guys don't advocate shooting the dog.


Shooting a dog can be dangerous to your health.  In 1982 a hunter kicked a deer dog belonging to this sawed off half pint hunter.  Immediately the fight was on.  The end of the story is that half pint put the other guy in the hospital for almost two weeks.  I know that half pint hunter, I was the arresting officer, and if the other guy would have shot the dog he would have ended up in the morgue.  Moral of the story is if you see someone breaking the law in the woods, running deer illegally with dogs, turn it over to the authorities.  Doing otherwise can be un-healthy.  Lawdog
 :D
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Offline Graybeard

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« Reply #21 on: October 19, 2005, 09:31:37 AM »
Quote
He just might be very valuable to someone


Maybeso, seems to me it's kinda foolish however to be turning loose a very valuable dog on someone else's land. Lots of hazards out there don't ya know.


Quote
So what exactly are the three S's?


Shoot. Shovel. Shut up.


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Offline wijim

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« Reply #22 on: October 19, 2005, 10:36:28 AM »
not all dog houndsmen lose control of their dogs.  in wi it is illegal to run deer with dogs.  but in the northern 1/2 of the state you can run bear with dogs and all over the state you can run yotes with dogs.  with smaller wilderness patches....they have to have toal control of the dogs so they dont go onto property that they dont belong on.  bears aint a long chase...but the yotes get a long ways out before they tire out.  the guys i know who run the coyotes are very welcome on my property obviously.  but i would assume that deer runners would be very similar in their training...i could be wrong.  but on the other hand....i dont shoot at deer running hard regardless...trotting yeah..im pretty high percentage shooting them trotting...but full out running..nope ill let em go.

Offline victorcharlie

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« Reply #23 on: October 19, 2005, 10:45:17 AM »
Quote from: Graybeard
Quote
He just might be very valuable to someone


Maybeso, seems to me it's kinda foolish however to be turning loose a very valuable dog on someone else's land. Lots of hazards out there don't ya know.


Quote
So what exactly are the three S's?


Shoot. Shovel. Shut up.


Problem is, dogs don't know where the property lines are.  Knowing how fast a deer and a dog can be gone, there is little way to prevent this, other than what I've already mentioned.  Generally, I try not to rabbit hunt in public places during deer season.  However, lets say I have permission to hunt a 200 acre dairy farm............I'm working the fence lines.........deer comes up, and dogs strike on the deer........If I'm not close, and if the dogs are fast, it's to late and there gone..............now I'm hunting the dogs.......no fun.... :oops:

There are people who purposefully dog deer......there are places where this is legal.........In this state, it's not legal.........does it happen?  Yes, but most of the time it's not on purpose but another hazard encountered while hunting over dogs..............

For those who have never hunted over fine hounds........there is no greater pleasure!   However, when the dogs get on a deer.......no Joy

 :oops:
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Offline Graybeard

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« Reply #24 on: October 19, 2005, 11:36:24 AM »
Can't speak to all places only around here where I'm familiar with what goes on.

But around here most folks do not even try to be legal. They knowingly put their dogs out where they have no permission to hunt. They line paved highways even those with lines down the middle and turn the dogs loose. Technically they are just parked on the highway right of way listening for their dogs in hopes of heading them off and catching them. However in reality they will shoot any deer that crosses that highway and they really could care less if a car is in the way. Or someone's home.

They may have permission to be on a small tract of land from five to 40 acres but will turn their dogs loose to roam the wide open and hope a deer gets run passed them.

If they have enough land to reasonably run dogs on I have no real problem with it. Yeah I've done it and seen the folks I was with doing both legal and illegal things. That's why I do not now do it and never would again.


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Offline victorcharlie

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« Reply #25 on: October 19, 2005, 11:49:11 AM »
Well Bill, I know it goes on.........I don't think it happens much around these parts........Now over in Arkansas, where dogging deer is legal, it's much as you describe..........I asked my cousin how they get the dogs back?  He tells me they show up some where a week or so later and some one calls the owner............He also tells me they don't spend much on a deer dog....hence they don't loose much..........

It's getting harder to hunt with dogs for sure........Seems they have a problem with fox hunting in England now.........who'ld of thought?  Such a great tradition........
"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. Tolerance in the face of tyranny is no virtue."
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Offline slayer

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« Reply #26 on: October 22, 2005, 04:25:39 PM »
Thank God, we aren`t allowed to use dogs for deer or bear here in PA. That would really upset me if I was hunting near them. It just doesn`t seam right also, well to me anyway. Now, with that being said, I have hunted behind some very good rabbit beagles and setters. if they are controled, it is very fun. It has been many years, and have grown to like not hearing all of that noise. Jack.