Author Topic: why not j.b bore paste for barrel breakin  (Read 1257 times)

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Offline rp85

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why not j.b bore paste for barrel breakin
« on: October 20, 2005, 09:39:55 AM »
hello;

just purchased a new handi in .223 rem.  have several questions about "todays" handies.  read the site on breaking one in.  are todays handies free of material in the receives that could cause problems?  a point was made to use j.b. bore brite and not bore paste, why?
 
anyone use the 60 gr. nosler partition bullet with h335 powder?  if so, how much h335 do you use?

thanks for any input.

rp

Offline quickdtoo

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why not j.b bore paste for barrel breakin
« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2005, 10:28:14 AM »
JB doesn't make a product called bore paste, they have JB Bore Cleaning Compound and Bore Bright. A product called USP Bore Paste is also available. I've used em all and think it doesn't make much difference, they all will work, the main thing is just use something to polish the bore before shooting to reduce break in time. I think the Bore Compound works faster than the Bore Bright, leaving the Bore Bright for a final polish as instructed by JB.

Most shooters find that the 1:12" twist rate of the .223 Handi doesn't handle bullets over 55gr well, but there are some exceptions to that like the .63gr Sierra and 64gr Win PP.

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=609136

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=738047

Use of the search feature will yield lots of .223 load data...

http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=69551
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Offline safetysheriff

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why not j.b bore paste for barrel breakin
« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2005, 12:02:00 PM »
some of those pastes / compounds will help to accelerate the erosion of a rifle's throat......which generally leads to accuracy loss.    if you look at some other sites where they look for Long range accuracy you'll see that some of those guys have been 'burned' by using such materials.

if you want to break in a rifle quickly i'd shoot the cheap fmj's through it if they are made in your caliber, and clean the rifle after every third shot for maybe 100 rounds.   when you push a solvent-soaked patch through the bore to start the cleaning just take it off the jag and throw it away so that you aren't dragging metal back and forth on the patch in the barrel.  after running a patch like that through the bore then you can use a patch in both directions to clean out the fouling.

use a bronze brush only for break-in procedures as needed -- even in a stainless steel bore.......and some would tell you to never use a stainless steel bore brush Ever!

take care,

ss'
Yet a little while and the wicked man shall be no more.   Though you mark his place he will not be there.   Ps. 37.

Offline quickdtoo

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why not j.b bore paste for barrel breakin
« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2005, 12:39:29 PM »
I think throat erosion on BR rifles is a product of handloading practices and the quantity of shooting done by BR competitors, something hunters usually don't really need to worry about. J-B is even recommended to clean up throat erosion to improve accuracy and is used religiously by many, many BR shooters. There are shooters that have many thousands of rounds down range thru their bore and use J-B regularly.

http://www.benchrest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25150&highlight=jb+bore+compound

http://www.benchrest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23907&highlight=jb+bore+compound
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Offline rp85

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thanks
« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2005, 12:50:34 PM »
thanks for the info.  i am looking for quick/fast barrel break in.  rifle should be in by wed. of next week.  so between wed. and sat. i need to break the barrel in and get grand-daughter shooting the rifle for our youth deer hunt.  

yes i know what some may say about hunting deer with the 223 rem.  my 243 win. handie was too much for her.  hopefully keeping her on small food plots that keep shots 75 yds. or less will help.
rp

Offline Lost Okie

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why not j.b bore paste for barrel breakin
« Reply #5 on: October 20, 2005, 02:21:08 PM »
rp85:  Did the same with my son when he was 12 (he's 29 now).  Didn't have a Handy in those days so he was using a Ruger Ranch Rifle and I used a reduced load along with the 60 grain bullets.  He made a beautiful shot just behind the front shoulder.  Had to trail her about 50 yrds.  Boy was he happy.
Good luck with your grand-daughters hunting trip.

Offline JPH45

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why not j.b bore paste for barrel breakin
« Reply #6 on: October 20, 2005, 05:07:45 PM »
Not being a smart aleck, just wondering, What is break in???? Some might define this as when the barrel no longer copper fouls, but that may occur at the same point in time the throat is shot out. Yet a shot out throat may not mean anythig more than a diffferent load is needed for the barrel to continue to shoot well.

What defines a barrel as being broken in? It strikes me that more than a simple polishing cream would be required to get there.
Boycott Natchez Shooters Supplies, Inc

Offline quickdtoo

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why not j.b bore paste for barrel breakin
« Reply #7 on: October 20, 2005, 05:17:15 PM »
John, neither you nor I will ever be able to quantify barrel break-in here!! Seems to me that I have to add one more subject to the list of stuff I shouldn't discuss.....Religion, Politics.....and barrel break-in!!! :-D  I guess it doesn't matter how ya get there, just as long as it gets done.

http://www.benchrest.com/FAQ/6.1.shtml
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Offline JPH45

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why not j.b bore paste for barrel breakin
« Reply #8 on: October 20, 2005, 05:25:34 PM »
'Tis a rough topic ain't it Tim. Thanks for the link, going to check it out now.

Wasn't in any way trying to be smart alecky, just I've not yet seen a "bullet proof" answer to the question.

Edit: That link makes more sense than anything else I've read  on this subject. I've wished more than once there was a definition for "barrel break in" What this gentleman says is spot on. What we are seeking is a barrel that is not throwing flyers as a result of metal fouling, be that copper or lead. Problem is, untill we are past a point of cleaning out metal fouling, we cannot with cetainty say our flyers are not the result of metal fouling, and even near perfect barrels metal foul. So it is not a subject that we shouldn't discuss, it is just one that requires better definition. Lots of folks ain't ever even heard of breaking in a barrel and shoot very nice groups all the same, while some of us resort to aggressively lapping a barrel in effort to improve grouping.

I wish I could afford a bore scope, but it would probably result in my fretting over minor imperfections that most likely have nothing to do with how my barrel groups. Better to spend the money on another Handi :grin:
Boycott Natchez Shooters Supplies, Inc

Offline cheatermk3

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Barrel "Break-In"
« Reply #9 on: October 20, 2005, 06:00:39 PM »
The way I understand it, what we're doing when using one of the many variations of the Sinclair method of breaking in a barrel could more properly be called burnishing the bore.  

The shoot once, clean, X5; then shoot 3 times, clean, for the next 15 rounds, and then after every fifth round, for another 25 rounds, is a short description of the "Sinclair method".  The cleaning regimen is 1 wet patch, then 1 dry patch, then 1 wet patch, followed by 1 fore-and-aft stroke with a wet bronze bore brush for each round fired depending where you are in the process, then 1 wet and 2 dry patches.  The bronze brush is cleaned after every 1,3, or 5 complete passes, with aerosol solvent.  I use 'Lectra- Motive which is similar to brake cleaner you can buy at an Auto parts store.  

The wetting agent (solvent) used is a special witches' brew.  The recipe I use is equal parts shooter's choice copper solvent, Kroil, and GM top cylinder lube.  You can get the top cylinder lube from any GM dealership's parts counter.

This solvent mix is potent and effective.  Use outdoors and be upwind.

The break-in process is best done in one session so that the heating up of the barrel from shooting helps the solvent work.  

You need to use a tight-fitting patch on a pierce-type jag, so that you do not pull the patch back through the bore.  I like to catch my patches in an empty plastic pop bottle that I slip over the muzzle(you go through a lot of patches doing this).  Use good quality cotton patches; I like the ones from shooter's choice.  Use the right size for your bore too.

Some guys will comment that it seems foolish to use strong copper solvents with a bronze bore brush.  The object of this method is not to "polish out" machine marks.  The Sinclair method of break-in both smooths out any burrs, sort of knocks off the high spots(very tiny ones) and fills in any micro-pores or cracks in the bore metal with jacket material, the goal being a surface that's smoother than what was provided in the factory production barrel.

The lapping process described in the stickies at the top of this forum, is a quick and effective way to smooth out the imperfections left by the factory production process.  

Both should improve a roughly finished bore.  I've had brand-new rifle barrels, and not just from NEF, that had rough spots that felt like my patch was riding on thousands of tiny burrs as if the bore had steel hairs sticking up out of the surface of the lands /grooves.  I had a Ruger 220 Swift that absolutely would not shoot; the last 2 inches of the bore up to the muzzle was rough as a cob.  You could see pieces of patch material stuck to the inside of it.  I had the last 2 inches of this barrel cut off and cut in half the long way so I could examine it closely--It is full of tiny holes called inclusions that are the result of a bad batch of steel getting past quality control at both the mill and the ruger barrel makers.

A custom, high-end benchrest-quality barrel should come from the barrelmaker's shop with a much smoother, uniform interior surface than any production rifle.  The lands of such barrels are sharp and the surfaces are smooth; aggressive break-in procedures like the one I've described can shorten the competitive life of such a barrel; certainly the lapping process described in the stickies is not for those types of tubes.  When you pass a tight-fitting patch through a Lilja or a Shilen match-grade barrel, it should feel like it's riding on snot-covered glass.

EDIT:
Darn!!
I type for 20 minutes and post, only to find a link that says it all in about 1/3 the wordage!!

You're the best, Tim!!

Offline trotterlg

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why not j.b bore paste for barrel breakin
« Reply #10 on: October 20, 2005, 07:16:55 PM »
It's just all black magic, if it shoots well just shoot it like it is, if it doesn't shoot well then you can try something to fix it and it may or may not work, if it does work then you sort of win, if it doesn't then you loose and waste a lot of money and time.  If it shoots "OK" when you are finished then you have a so-so barrel that cost you a bunch of time.  Nothing but luck will get you even close to  a nice custom cut rifled barrel.  You get what you pay for, these little rifles are great bargains, but you should expect to pay twice the price of a complete handi rifle for a really good un-chambered quality barrel alone.  Larry
A gun is just like a parachute, if you ever really need one, nothing else will do.

Offline Mac11700

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why not j.b bore paste for barrel breakin
« Reply #11 on: October 20, 2005, 07:40:22 PM »
I've always had very good luck with mine...accuracy wise at least...and I always use Flitz polish after fully cleaning all the copper and carbon out of it... To shoot and clean...shoot and clean...shoot and clean...it isn't fun...it isn't quick...it isn't inexpensive...but it has worked for me with all of the  Handi's and other rifles I have ever owned...and I do have the groups to back this up...so...is it luck...some may think so..but I think it the rewards of having some great shooting rifles... comes from investing the time,money,and effort,to make them shoot...and barrel prepping is just the beginning...it has to continue thru the ammo selection and handloading technique and then on to the bench...and all the work there...it's something I can take pride in knowing I've made it better than before...and I just won't settle for ho-hum groups...never have...never will...even shooting these little Handi rifles...

Mac
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Offline warf73

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why not j.b bore paste for barrel breakin
« Reply #12 on: October 20, 2005, 09:37:39 PM »
I've had great luck with H335 and 55gr. pill.

Good luck on the deer hunt hope she gets one.

Warf
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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: Barrel "Break-In"
« Reply #13 on: October 21, 2005, 05:37:11 AM »
Quote from: cheatermk3

Darn!!
I type for 20 minutes and post, only to find a link that says it all in about 1/3 the wordage!!

You're the best, Tim!!


Thanks, Mike!!! :wink:
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline JPH45

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Re: Barrel "Break-In"
« Reply #14 on: October 21, 2005, 11:48:18 AM »
Quote from: cheatermk3
The way I understand it, what we're doing when using one of the many variations of the Sinclair method of breaking in a barrel could more properly be called burnishing the bore.  

The shoot once, clean, X5; then shoot 3 times, clean, for the next 15 rounds, and then after every fifth round, for another 25 rounds, is a short description of the "Sinclair method".  The cleaning regimen is 1 wet patch, then 1 dry patch, then 1 wet patch, followed by 1 fore-and-aft stroke with a wet bronze bore brush for each round fired depending where you are in the process, then 1 wet and 2 dry patches.  The bronze brush is cleaned after every 1,3, or 5 complete passes, with aerosol solvent.  I use 'Lectra- Motive which is similar to brake cleaner you can buy at an Auto parts store.  

The wetting agent (solvent) used is a special witches' brew.  The recipe I use is equal parts shooter's choice copper solvent, Kroil, and GM top cylinder lube.  You can get the top cylinder lube from any GM dealership's parts counter.

This solvent mix is potent and effective.  Use outdoors and be upwind.

The break-in process is best done in one session so that the heating up of the barrel from shooting helps the solvent work.  

You need to use a tight-fitting patch on a pierce-type jag, so that you do not pull the patch back through the bore.  I like to catch my patches in an empty plastic pop bottle that I slip over the muzzle(you go through a lot of patches doing this).  Use good quality cotton patches; I like the ones from shooter's choice.  Use the right size for your bore too.

Some guys will comment that it seems foolish to use strong copper solvents with a bronze bore brush.  The object of this method is not to "polish out" machine marks.  The Sinclair method of break-in both smooths out any burrs, sort of knocks off the high spots(very tiny ones) and fills in any micro-pores or cracks in the bore metal with jacket material, the goal being a surface that's smoother than what was provided in the factory production barrel.

The lapping process described in the stickies at the top of this forum, is a quick and effective way to smooth out the imperfections left by the factory production process.  

Both should improve a roughly finished bore.  I've had brand-new rifle barrels, and not just from NEF, that had rough spots that felt like my patch was riding on thousands of tiny burrs as if the bore had steel hairs sticking up out of the surface of the lands /grooves.  I had a Ruger 220 Swift that absolutely would not shoot; the last 2 inches of the bore up to the muzzle was rough as a cob.  You could see pieces of patch material stuck to the inside of it.  I had the last 2 inches of this barrel cut off and cut in half the long way so I could examine it closely--It is full of tiny holes called inclusions that are the result of a bad batch of steel getting past quality control at both the mill and the ruger barrel makers.

A custom, high-end benchrest-quality barrel should come from the barrelmaker's shop with a much smoother, uniform interior surface than any production rifle.  The lands of such barrels are sharp and the surfaces are smooth; aggressive break-in procedures like the one I've described can shorten the competitive life of such a barrel; certainly the lapping process described in the stickies is not for those types of tubes.  When you pass a tight-fitting patch through a Lilja or a Shilen match-grade barrel, it should feel like it's riding on snot-covered glass.

EDIT:
Darn!!
I type for 20 minutes and post, only to find a link that says it all in about 1/3 the wordage!!

You're the best, Tim!!


Personally, I thought that was very well written. I don't know all there is to know about Magnafluxing, but I'm pretty sure it will only show what happening on the outside of the barrel. Inclusions can happen in a layer(s) and if there are none exposed, the part will look good as the particulate exposes surfaces cracks. I once worked for an automotive OEM and we had trouble with shafts that were breaking, no cracks were showing in the Magnaflux tester. Problem was eventually traced to an improper heat treat for the steel.
Boycott Natchez Shooters Supplies, Inc

Offline safetysheriff

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why not j.b bore paste for barrel breakin
« Reply #15 on: October 21, 2005, 01:34:37 PM »
Quote from: quickdtoo
J-B is even recommended to clean up throat erosion to improve accuracy and is used religiously by many, many BR shooters. There are shooters that have many thousands of rounds down range thru their bore and use J-B regularly.

tim'

that doesn't disprove what i said before.    sure, it will 'clean up' throat erosion -- meaning the roughness that raises pressures and reduces velocity as a bullet is pushed past it.   but that still doesn't discount the fact that the throat is eroding which is usually detrimental to accuracy.   and sure, they can shoot 'thousands' of rounds down a bore, particularly if it's been cut-rifled i would think; but that still begs the point.

throat erosion is hastened by the use of some/many(?) of these compounds even if the roughness is removed, and even if the handloader seats the bullets a little further out.    the fact remains, barrel life can be shortened by using these materials.    i, for one, don't want to be 'chasing' the lands in a rifle that is a decent shooter because of this.    

i'm satisfied from my study of the subject that a decent solvent and a good brush with 'many' strokes is more beneficial than the use of these abrasives.....   i've previously neglected one Model 700 and two Handi's to the point where the muzzle rifling was "round" from metal/powder fouling.    but i got it All out with bronze brushes and Hoppe's #9, and Birchwood Casey's 'Bore Scrubber'.    and i got back that "gilt-edged" accuracy without beating up the leade/throat in the rifles.

some of you may want, once again, to look at www.long-range.com to see what they have to say about some of these topics.    the reason for that suggestion is because they have to clean up a lot more powder/metal fouling than many of us do in a years time.    

good luck to all,

ss'
Yet a little while and the wicked man shall be no more.   Though you mark his place he will not be there.   Ps. 37.