American Pioneer Powder

[daddywpb]

Is this stuff as good as they say it it? I have been told that the Bass Pro near us is getting it in this weekend. Is it worth the drive? I's like to hear from some people who have used this powder.
Thanks.

[Omegaman]

Try it, its really everything they say it is I think. The shelf life for me has been just as good as the pyrodex and others. (no loss of power) When the tripple 7 stuff came out it was the rave for everyone, but even with it I found it was harder to get rid of the residue then pyro. (drives me nuts)
I think what really turns this product off from some is the fact that they dont get there hands blackened up and dirty:) While others still might complain about moisture in different powder's. But hey, we are talking about in-lines here right, easier to clean and yes those stainless are superior in this department.
OM

[Lane]

Buy ONLY the FFFg! :grin:  


That FFg is like rock salt-Coarse! :shock:


And yes, the stuff is Great.  I've used it for 4 years and love it. :wink:

[X-Participant]

Censored

[DES]

I tried the FFG, it seems to have less energy than comparable amounts of 777 or BM3. It is also very coarse, the "rock salt" comment was pretty close!    It doesn't leave much fouling and is about 1/2 the cost of BM3, at least around here.

[X-Participant]

Censored

[Lane]

Hawken Cougar

I think it all comes down to air space and compression.  Being APP 2F is about equal to a true 0F in granular size.
 And when measuring volumetrically it can have a lot of air space in the load (even after a 5 tap sequence) then with regular compression in the rifle you get larger groups and more flyers.

Now take the 3F version that actually looks like 1F, compared to 2F Black/Pyro/777.  Then you have less air space in the loads, better compression, and better groups and less flyers.

Or you can just take our word for it, cause we've been using this powder for over 4 years, and have tried all the rest in comparison.  From our experience this is the best powder-dollar for dollar- than anything else on the market. :shock:  :wink:

(I will be testing Pinnacle and Shockey's Gold on Thursday-all made by APP, all samples 3F)

APP is nowhere close to BM3 or 777 in velocity--Unless you boost APP loads to about 125grains by volume to match 100 grains of loose 777 roughly.

Or you can fess up the 40 bucks and do your own testing, and get stuck with a nearly full pound of 2F APP that will just sit on Your shelf. :roll:  :-)

[Michiganiac]

How do the APP sticks compare to 777 pellets? Anybody know?

Bill

[Michiganiac]

Just got back from Gander Mountain - I picked up some of the Jim Shockey's Gold n FFFg. They only had the regular label in FFg. I plan on shooting some in my Omega this weekend, so I'll post the results here afterwards.

Bill

[Lane]

I got some results from my pinnacle testing here:

http://goexpowder.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=817&start=15


Got more ta do but not looking too bad right now.

[daddywpb]

My local Bass Pro Shop is special ordering two pounds of the sticks for me. I hope it gets here before the start of the season so I can get to the range with it. I've been shooting black powder for 30 years - always hated the clean up. A friend of mine left his rifle loaded for a couple weeks (without a primer) during hunting season last year and ruined a brand new Omega. The ring of rust was there to stay. I told him not to do it, but.... If I can spend my time at the range shooting my Omega instead of cleaning it, this stuff will be a lifesaver. I tried the "easy to clean" 777. THe crud ring was like concrete and my group size tripled. I've got my fingers crossed that my rifle will like the AP powder.

[Keith Lewis]

Hope you have better results with the sticks than I did. They seem to shoot OK but they are really irregular in shape and weight. I do not think they can be as consistent as loose APP. Personally I prefer loose powder anyway. I only got the sticks as the shop I was looking for some APP only had the sticks left. I finally found some ffg loose and it is better but I think I would prefer fffg if I could find it. I am now working on my latest order of fffg Goex Pinnacle which I think for me will either replace Black Mag'3 or I will stay with the Black Mag which so far has been the best.

[daddywpb]

After waiting three weeks when it was supposed to take three days, the APP sticks came in. I picked them up and went to the range yesterday. Very disappointing. I don't know if it's me or my rifle, but performance from the APP was poor. True, my hands weren't black, but the rifle was a mess, covered with the gritty white residue and very hard to load. Group size doubled from my results with Pyrodex pellets. I don't have a chrono, but recoil was significantly less than my 100 grain Pyrodex load, so I'm not buying the equal velocity claim. Maybe my Omega is just very picky...it won't shoot with 777 either. Anyway, the bottom line is I've spent $28 on a box of 777 pellets that I gave away after ten shots, and $45 on two pounds of APP sticks, one of which I haven't opened, and I'm still using Pyrodex and it took twice as long to clean the rifle yesterday. Anyone else have these kind of results?

[poncaguy]

I had very good luck Saturday with 110 Grains of AP FFG and 245 and 295 grain Powerbelt's, shot to same point of aim at 100 yards. Was easier to clean than  777 pellets in my Omega and Encore. Had 4 Remington ML 209's fail to fire my Pursiut LT. Will not use Remington ML's or 777 pellets anymore.........don't trust them now.

[marylandeer]

I love this APP powder  :grin: . I tried it in my Knight disc elite last Saturday and it totally loved the stuff. I took Lane's advice and bought a pound of 3fg APP and for the hech of it I bought a pound of the sticks to try for a hunting load. I started shooting 95 grains of 3fg and the results were terrific, better than any muzzleloader with any kind or amount of powder I have ever tried. Then when I tried the two sticks the groups were still very good and hitting almost exactly where I was with the powder. Clean up was a breeze,  no rotten eggs or black soot just a little white residue that came off easy. All bullets went down the barrel easy for me, easier than with pyrodex (for me anyway.)
Here is my full range report if anyone cares to read it.
I was using Remington clean bore primers (no missfires)
http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=73886

[daddywpb]

I have come to the conclusion that I'm doing something wrong. Everyone I've talked to has praised the APP powder as being the best. I don't get it.

[Lane]

Daddy

I would just advise you to go thru a good cleaning procedure using a copper and lead solvent with a new brass brush and pass it thru at least30 strokes.  Then get some Buches Bore Paste/USP Bore paste and use liberally for another 30 passes.  Swab'er out with some more solvent, dry patch, then oil patch and one last dry patch-Once thru only.  Reassemble and get her ready for the next range session.

APP powder works best if compressed VERY Firmly-Press until it won't go no more!  If those sticks are soft enough to be crushed during compression, then I would say go ahead and try it.  If not, and the cleaning process has not improved regular stick performance, then try a pound of Loose APP 3Fg.  Start at 90-100grns by volume and work up from there.

Bullets:

Encore has a tight bore shallow groves designed for sabots.  If you try powerbelts use the 348grn type.  The PR Duplex 195grn combo shoots like a laser beam in many rifles(for 50cal guns) and in 45cal guns try the 357/195 sabot combination :wink:   If you plan on using a clean barrel/no fowling shot to hunt with, then swab with 2 damp alcohol patches (Both sides) followed by 2 dry patches between each shot at the range session.  Then let the barrel cool down between each shot, working up your load in 5grain increments.  Shooting 3-5 shot groups per load.

Powder:

Pinnacle/shockey's Gold, and Regular APP are all basically the same.  Any one of these in 3Fg will do the job.  (With Pinnacle being a little short on power by volume compared to the others, cause it is a tad larger granulation.  I'd add 5 grains extra too equal the other 2 powders.)

Scope:

Take off all mounting hardware.  Clean and Loctite the scope bases securely.  Reattach ring bases, and Loctite these also.  Place scope on lower ring halves and attach top ring halves--Use No Loctite on upper ring screws!  Bore sight or what ever it takes to square up the Reticle.

First time back at the range, just shoot at least 10 times before any serious load development.  This will settle the scope into the rings and mounts.  Carefully check scope ring torque(don't over tighten)  Then start your new load work-ups


Of coarse you may know all this already, forgive me for being detailed :-)


Hope this helps :wink:

[daddywpb]

Lane,
Yes, it's stuff I know and I have tried some of it, but not all. Thanks for the detail. You reminded me of some points I hadn't thought of. I must admit though, probably just from being lazy, I'm thinking about just sticking with the Pyrodex pellets. After giving up on the APP sticks at the range, I was putting stuff away in my shooting box and found three speedloaders that contained my hunting load, two 50/50 Pyrodex pellets and a 295 grain Powerbelt. I got some water and scrubbed as much of the white grit from the APP out of the bore as I could. I changed targets and fired the three loads from the speedloaders. They were in a group about 1 1/2" center to center - the size group that I know the rifle is capable of. I did not swab the bore in between the three shots because that is the way I would load it if I was hunting (hopefully, I wouldn't need three shots). The Powerbelts loaded easily as usual, and the POI was consistent, as usual.
I have a few rimfire rifles that are very picky about what kind of ammo I use in them. They will group well with one particular brand and load, but that's not unusual with rimfires. I have never had that problem with any ML, and very few center fire rifles before, but this particular Omega will not shoot anything else well except the load mentioned above. I have tried loose Pyrodex, 777 and Goex, and could not get consistent results with anything else. I'm not complaining because it shoots that particular load so well, it's just not the norm. I was looking forward to the sulfur free clean up, but looks like I'm not going to get it.

[jgalar]

I just test fired 2 guns with the AP powder, an 1861 revolver and a .32 Crocket rifle. It took a surprising amount of shots with the rifle until it started shooting tight groups. Once it started shooting tight groups it just kept shooting them. The .32 only takes charges of 15-20 grains, the barrel is long so it may just take a bit of shooting until it gets evenly fouled. If you are having problems with the powder you may want to shoot a few charges to foul the barrel well. I liked this powder with the Crocket, you don't need to lube the patches. Those little patches are hard enough to deal with without messing around with lube.

The revolver was a surprise in that you can see how much the powder compresses when loaded. With any other powder than I have used in revolvers the powder will compress a bit, but with the AP it must crush down to a tightly packed power. In my 1861 colt about 30grains of powder will fill the cylinder. I used 25 grains of AP. When I seated the ball it was seated at about the same depth that 15 grains of Pyrodex would. They say not to use lube with AP so I didn't. The revolver stiffened up quite a bit after a few cylinders so I think I may stick with pyrodex and lube in revolvers.

The powder shot well for me although its a bit different. Cleanup wasn't any better or worse than any other stuff. If the powder is as non corrosive as they say it is you could keep your rifle fouled so no fouling shots would be necessary. I just don't have a beater rifle that I want to experiment with.

[daddywpb]

I don't have to have a fouling shot to shoot good groups with Pyrodex. I'm not going to store my rifle dirty, corrosive or not.

[RicMic]

I like the 2F APP, maybe 3F will tighten up my already good groups.

Hey LANE you can send me all of that unused 2F APP you have sitting on the shelf, I'll definitely use it.