why is the .45-70 better than the .500 S&W?

[quickdtoo]

They're from the 2004 Hodgdon Annual, top of page 110, which is the last of the lever action loads, the next section below that is the modern rifle loads(ruger #1, #3 and 1895 single shot and bolt guns) which the Handi is known to handle, but at the same pressures as the 500 S&W.

[R.W.Dale]

I do....it's called the 50 Alaskan.

Mac

 50 Alaskan uses .510 dia bullets
 500 S&W uses .500 dia bullets

 Aside from reboring you're not gonna get away with a simple ream job.

[Badnews Bob]

Hey Mac isn't the 50 alaskan .510 bore? The S&W is .500.

I don't care anyhow, I'll never jack my .45-70 past lower marlin loads. I don't like to be hit by recoil that hard. I kinda like my .357s and they've stopped everything I've ever shot with one.

[jerkface11]

Seems odd that hodgdon would show a 300fps increase over every manual I have. My lee manual shows a 400 grainer going 1800 fps in a 45-70 that's the fastest load i can find.

[cwlongshot]

First off, I have been a 45-70 fan for a long time. I have been a big bore fan for even longer.

 Better is a realitive term. Better how......

Is it better to have the ability to shoot the heavest bullet? Nod to 500 @ 700 grs
Is it better to be able to shoot at the highest velocity? Nod to 500
Is it better to have the largest selection of bullet weights? Nod to 500 @ 7
Is it better to be older? Nod to 45-70 about 100 yrs
Is it better to have been a US military loaded cartridge? Nod to 45-70
Is it better to be chambered in more different model firearms? Nod to 45-70 @ 5
Is it better to be more popular? nod 45-70

Out of the above questions the two that I feel have the most to do with the 45-70 popularity are: The 45-70 was a US military round. and the bugger is OLD!!! Almost every US military round has seen enormus popularity. With age come the advantage of having "been there and done that." Age itself hasen't betterd or worsened the 45-70.

The fact that a new kid can be compaired to Grand dad so soon in its life is quite a compliment to the 500.

For my purposes, I see it as a short range powerhouse. Something I can use to shoot large bullets at large game at short distances.  Now, I do not see the 45-70 as a long range caliber. BUT, shooting my loads, in my gun, I wouldn't hesitate to shoot Mr Whitetail at 200 YDS or even a triful farther. I dont think the same of the 500..so what. I wouldn't shoot my 32-20 win or my 45 Colt Bisley that far, at game either but I dont like them any less for it.

JP,
  As far as someones opinion not holding weight solely because of thier age...next time your puter needs repair and your grandson/daughter fixes it by pushing a couple buttons...remember your comments about not being around long enough to know! :grin: Its not how long, as much as how well, you paid attention! :eek:  :wink:
I herd this in a song once, "Thusfar, I spent my entire life not being old enough".

For my money, I'll enjoy BOTH,

 Enjoy,
 CW

[JPH45]

JP,
  As far as someones opinion not holding weight solely because of thier age...next time your puter needs repair and your grandson/daughter fixes it by pushing a couple buttons...remember your comments about not being around long enough to know! :grin: Its not how long, as much as how well, you paid attention! :eek:  :wink:
I herd this in a song once, "Thusfar, I spent my entire life not being old enough".

For my money, I'll enjoy BOTH,

 Enjoy,
 CW

I was afraid that woud be misinterpreted, either by the young man himself or someone else. What I mean is this....at he age of 24 one cannot possibly have the advantage of seeing over time how people respond to and use new and old cartridges. Fact is the 348 Winchester was a fine cartridge, capable of taking down anything the 45-70 will, yet where is the 348? For that matter where is the model 71 it was chambered in??? The 416 Remington is a true magnum and head and shoulders above the 45-70, when was the last time you saw one of those? When was the last time you read of someone using one of those? I wonder how many 45-70's Ruger has sold as compared to how many 416 Rigby's, yet the 45-70 does not stand that far behind the Rigby in #1 level loads, In fact, there is little in-between. I'd be willing to bet that there are more 45-70's around than 375 H&H's , yet het 375 is easily as versitile as the 45-70 and far more powerful as well. What about the 257 Roberts? The 6mm Remington? Both are fine deer cartridges, and I'd bet again the 45-70 does more deer hunting than bear hunting. For that matter, how many 25-06's do you see as compared to 45-70's???

It was not our young friends opinion I doubt, it is his lack of life experience that leads me to question the basis of the opinion. Anyone can have an opinion, that in itself won't make it valid. (nor invalidate it for that matter)

Understand that I don't think popularity alone makes a cartridge great. The 7mm Remington Magnum is a popular cartridge, I'd wouldn't go so far as to call it great. It is a repackaged 30-06.

As to heavy 400 grain loads, the heaviest that Accurate Arms shows in Manual #2 is 57 grains of 2460 for 1926 fps at 28,000 PSI. Lyman goes to 2063 fps with a 57 grain charge of XMP2015 at a pressure of just 38,700 CUP (cast bullet) 1915 for the 405 jacketed with 53 grains of H322, right at 40,000 CUP.

I am a fan of the 45-70, but not an owner, have been, won't be again. I dont' have any need to pound the daylights out of myself, and I can drive 270 grian bullets as fast as I care to stand up to 'em from my 38-55. Part of this whole question hinges on just how much killin' does it need. To quote a friend I met here when Marlin/H&R hosted us...... A whitetail just don't need that much killing. I doubt an elk does either.

It may be that the real story is that the 500 and the 45-70 are ballistic twins. I still bet that when the fat lady sings, the 45-70 will be as great and as popular and as readily available as it is today. It is interesting to note that while the 444 Marlin was instrumental in the 45-70's rebirth, it remains something of wall flower, neither a runner nor a has been. You can find folks who are enarmored with the 444 and sing it's praises to all who will listen, but they mostly sing to the choir, as the audience is listening to the 45-70. Marlin has kept the 444 alive for some 40 years now. They have also kept the 35 Remington alive. It will be interesting to see how long they give the 500 SW a stable.

I'll bet the 500 will be a dead cartridge in 10 years. It is novel, but that is the problem, it is novel. What does it really do other than require a 4 pound handgun and someone enarmored with their machisimo to pull the trigger? The 454 Casull has found a few homes outside the FAR, but it doesn't require a frame redesign to handle it. The only levergun one could stick the 500 into is either the 1886 or the Model 71. The question of course would be why? (notwithstanding the questions of pressures) It could be fit into the High Wall, but Browning has dropped production, for some time now. It fits into the Handi. So there are two guns in the world I can think of off hand that can even be so chambered, the X-frame and the Handi. It could be put on the Encore, Does anyone see TC rushing to the factory floor for that one??? No, the 500 will become as has been, and if there is any reason to go with the 45-70, it is that.

[R.W.Dale]

JPH45 wrote


It was not our young friends opinion I doubt, it is his lack of life experience that leads me to question the basis of the opinion. Anyone can have an opinion, that in itself won't make it valid. (nor invalidate it for that matter)

 So what you're saying is that a person has to be drawing social security to like an old cartrige? SO since I am only 27 I should despise my beloved .303 brit. Please enlighten me.

[Mac11700]

Fact is the 348 Winchester was a fine cartridge, capable of taking down anything the 45-70 will, yet where is the 348? For that matter where is the model 71 it was chambered in???

I'll tell ya...they are sitting in collectors safes or being used up in Alaska...where from what I hear....they don't last long on anyones shelves unless they are damaged rusted shut or priced too high...like this onehttp://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=37986796

Yes...most normal model 71's that have been turned into 50 Alaskans uses the larger diameter bullet...but..I've seen writtings with both the .510 bullets used and the .500 bullets for the same...so..it wouldn't take much to chamber to the correct overall lenght of  2.10" and the brass is made from blowing out Winchester 348's cases......The 50 Alaskan even though Turnbull and a few others are loading for it...is still  considered a wildcat....a very capable wildcat.

Mac

[JPH45]

JPH45 wrote
 So what you're saying is that a person has to be drawing social security to like an old cartrige? SO since I am only 27 I should despise my beloved .303 brit. Please enlighten me.

 :grin:  :grin:  :grin:  

Krochus, I do hope all this is in good humor, You strike me as being quite knowledgable actually.

No I'm not saying you have to be a crotchity of fart like myself to appreciate an old cartridge. I am saying that you younger guys missed a whole era of firearms growth and change. I remember when even owning a 45-70 was somewhat of a novelty. Now there are websites dedicated to the thing.

What was wrong with the 225 Winchester? The post 64 Model 70 combined with Remington standardizing the 22-250. What prompted Winchester to introduce the 256 Winchester, a necked down 357 Mag case, as a pistol round, when there were not even pistols for it? Ruger brought out the Hawkeye, but it is a foot note in all that was going on in firearms in the '60's Remingtons XP100 and the 221 Fireball took the handrifle enthuseists by storm. Remington brought out the 7mm Mag, Winchester the 284. The 284 died, the &mm had great popularity, but it's on the wain, yet the humble ol 45-70 is gaining in fans and poularity.

This is what I mean. If you did not see that happen or are unaware of it, it's easy to believe that the new and wonderful are here to stay. I don't buy it. I've seen good cartridges, relaly good cartridges die for no other reason than folks didn't see the point, or the intro was badly handled, as in the 284 Winnie. It would have easily done the same or a tad better than the 7MM Mag, winchester made the magizine to short, had to short seat the bullets, it didn't have a belt on the case head (VERY avant garde in the times) the cartridge didn't live up to the advertising.....dead. The 22 and 6mm PPC are possibly the two most accurate cartridges ever made.... how many do you see?

One thing my Dad told me as we were in the juck yard one day "I've learned more about what will and won't work here in the junkyard than the engineers at the plant will ever know" (He was the quality control engineer, not just some dummy on the floor) Ed Malner, a maintance enginer I worked with a couple years said "that silly idea didn't work in '74 and it won'k work today"

Give yourself another 20 years (that's what I have on ya) and you'll see this altogether different. What people miss about firearms, cartridges and such, is that internal and external ballistics are a mature science. Without a radicial change in the nature of propellents and arms materials, what we got is as good as it gets. I look at the 500 and see another 284 Winchester. It don't so anything the 45-70 won't do. (700 grain bullets? not on my shoulder) and smart people are going to do the smart thing.... if they need more power thanthe 45-70 offers, they are going to go get a 458 Win. or a 458 Lott or some other oversize beast killer. Lots of folks talk about converting the 500 to a 50 Alaskan or something like..... ever see one? Lot's of need for that ain't there.

People who are really in the know realize that a 35 Whelen or the 375 H&H will do just as nicely. They go into the game feilds every year and feed their families and all this kind of talk is just that, talk. Cartridges come and go, the ones that get the job done, day in and out survive. Ask Quick or Haywire Haygood if that 45-90 is their go to gun.......

I hope you enjoy that 500, I wouldn't look to it to displace the 45-70.

[Mac11700]

JPH45:
 
How did you like that model 71 for sale...? I sure would love to have a couple of them right now...and you are quite right...several great cartridges have died on the vine for no apparent reason...but me-thinks those that are carrying around those true hog-legs...will want a rifle to go along with them...and the 500S&W Handi...will be there for them.Time will tell if it makes it or not...and I surely don't have a need for anything heavier hitting than my 45-70...perhaps if I lived up by Sourdough...it might be different...but..here in the mid-west...nope.....as too the 284...yep...it sure is a good one...those model 88's and 100's sounded the death knell for it rather quickly...and it's kinda dejavou again with the SAUM cartridges...even though they are very good cartridges..
 
Mac

[R.W.Dale]

Naw 45 I knew what you were trying to say it was just not quite coming out right  Actually All it takes is a little bit o firearms history. Just look at my posts in the bolt gun forum reguarding the .260 rem vs 6.5x55 swede. Or worse yet the 6.8spc.
 
 Now that being said I was very skeptical about the 500 when introduced, I would say WHY what will this monstrocity kill that 454 won't. But after firing a rifle WOW these things are fun! Everybody should own one rifle that is.

 The ol 45-70 aint gonna go away because there is a 50 cal round avalible but I also don't see the 500 going away anytime soon amazingly the handguns are sellin like hotcakes. If i,m not mistaken Taurus is also introducing one.

 I think the 45-70,500 relationship is gonna end up like the 270,280 relationship witch one of those is better?
 
 I was just kinda suprised at the level of emotion this topic brought about.

[Cottonwood]

Now who said the 50 Alaskan was not in the TC Encore?

SSK Industries  :-D

I still like the 45-70 and oh yeah the 45-90's  

[bajabill]

I think the 45-70 may suffer capacity-wise with the heavier bullets, making the 45-90 a serious thought if you were wanting to send the big balls downrange.  But, wouldnt the 500 even be more strapped for space on the heavy for caliber pills.  

Anyone do the math yet on expansion ratios for these 2 with about 22 inch barrels.  I think the 500 is and will be primarily a handgun cartridge, not a comparable for the 45-70.

Krochus,  I think the point about age and history is that there is a big difference between reading it and experiencing it.  For the most part, we live such a short life, most of our history knowledge is thru reading, so that which we experience should be held in higher esteem.  Most of the posts on this thread were very rational.  Pointing out the vast historic differences between these 2 cartridges is not being overly emotional, its a fact, and taking that into consideration is perfectly normal.  Like I said way up in this debate, both are going to function equally within our ability to distinguish.  If one should fail, the other probably would have also.  Then you should have taken the 458 win mag - there aint no comparison with that one.

[JPH45]

 The ol 45-70 aint gonna go away because there is a 50 cal round avalible but I also don't see the 500 going away anytime soon amazingly the handguns are sellin like hotcakes. If i,m not mistaken Taurus is also introducing one.
 
 I was just kinda suprised at the level of emotion this topic brought about

Taurus is intorducing one? People are friggin' nuts! I guess if that's what floats the boat........

I quit keeping up with the newest latest greatest. I have a 38-55, a 357 Max (finally got it shootin', I'll post on it) I'd love to have a 25-20 os a 32-20, a 32 H&R Mag would be perfection far as I'm concerned, I'd settle for a 45 ACP and keep my mouth shut. I;ve been around long enough, and been through enough that I'm completely aware that all that glitters is not gold, and that Barnum was right, "There's a sucker born every minute." (I'm not suggesting you are)

The latest magnum madness from Remchester has completely turned me off to the new offerings from the gun makers. I need a 300 Ultra Mag about like I need a 50 Browning, in fact I'd probably be more likely to own a 50 Browning than a 300 Ultra. Bigger is not always better, and those of us who are not seeking bigger are being left out in the cold, so as far as I'm concerned, the major manufactuer's will not ever see a penny of my money. They whine they are going broke, yet only cater to a small segment of the shooters in the nation. 300 Ultras?? 500 S%W's? Let 'em go broke.

If  there is anything to the emotion behind the 45-70 it is that. The 45-70 represents a known quality. It ain't sold with a bunch of hype behind it, it doesn't make any pretenses about what it is (though some owners do :wink: ) The 45-70 is stable. It is not just about history, it is like the Northern Star. it is a standard against which others are compared. Is the 500 a star or a comet?

Like it or not, shooters tend to be conservative. We tend to judge things against what has been and against the school af hard knocks. I'm sure there aer plenty aout there going wild over the 300 Ultra, the 500 SW and a host of the latest greatest. I'm willing to bet that most are under 35 and their kids are still running around with snot running out their nose, and they dont have any real hunting or field experience. And I don't think that folks who have a 500 are looking for a rifle to go with it, the whole point of the 500 would be to eliminate the rifle, but the sensible folks are looking at it and thinking, "If I need that much hadgun, I'll just carry my rifle".

Is the 45-70 any better than the 500? How would you prove it? Is the 500 better than the 45-70? How would you prove it? It is a choice. It is really like the old revolver/automatic arguements, to say one is better than another is nonsensical, the question is what are you going to do with it. A revolver makes a far better nightstand gun for a novice than an automatic does. If i'm gearing up to fight off Satans Horde, give me an autoloader. If I want to impress someone (including myself) with the size of my handgun, give me a 500 SW. If I want a good basic reliable rifle I can take anywhere, to do anything with, give me a 45-70.

You'll have a hard time changing my mind, the 500 SW is a (censored word) extension and time is on my side. A hadgun is exactly that, a handgun. If I can't control it with one hand, it ain't a handgun anymore. If it weighs more than 3 pounds it ain't a handgun, if I have to wear it in ahoulder rig because hanging it on my belt pulls my britches off, it ain't a handgun. The 500 probably is better suited to the Handi, becasue when compared to what a handgun should be it is a rifle round stuck in stockless rifle.

Anything I wouldn't shoot with my 45 Colt, needs a rifle. I can readily kill deer and feed myself with a 45 Colt at 50 yards. If its' bigger or farther away than that, give me a rifle. And if the rifle don't say 30-30, 30-06 or 35 Whelen it's a novelty, and that includes the 45-70 so far as I'm concerned :grin:

[FirstFreedom]

I think the 460 S&W would be a better Handi round than the 500, shoots farther & flatter. 45-70 covers the 500 pretty well.............

Yes, but the .460 is a .452-bullet .45-70, whereas the .45-70 is a .458-bullet .45-70.  The latter is highly preferred, it would seem, since .458 bullets have been made and made well for a long time to perform well out of rifles at high/rifle velocities (.458 lott, .458 winmag, etc.), whereas .451 bullets are pistol bullets, and will disintegrate at rifle velocities, except for the very few that will be designed specifically for the .460.

So once again, the .45-70 wins.  I actually think the .500 s&w is much, MUCH more 'justifiable' than the .460 s&w, given what we already have (.45-70 and .450 marlin) due to that .700 gr monster and the slightly larger frontal area.  

S&W is very late to the game.  Magnum research made a .460 revolver a long time ago - it's called the .45-70, and it's chambered in the BFR.   :-D  :eek:

Taurus is intorducing one?

No, Taurus is introducing FOUR revolvers in .500 S&W mag - a 10", a 6", a 4", and a 2" !   :shock:

http://www.taurususa.com/products/gunselector-results.cfm?series=RB2

http://www.taurususa.com/products/product-details.cfm?model=500MSS2&category=Revolver

[jbadams66]

Boy have I  missed out on a bit here, been out in the woods with stick and string chasing deer (no luck    )  

I think that the gun industry has really gone through a change here in the last 10 years.  Before that, not everyone had or could afford a chronograph and the challange to sqweeze a few more fps out of a cartidge just wasnt there.  The only way to judge a cartidge was accuracy and performance on game.  The .30-30 would fill most peoples needs for both accuracy and killing ability, if you needed more range you could go up to a .270/30-06.  Looking back at the .348 and even the newer .356/.375 you had more power but also more recoil,  when you already have a gun that does all that you need with lower recoil why change.  Recoil pads werent really used that I know of.  I think that Alaska is the only place that the .348 really survived,  it was needed to get the desirable performance.  

I think that the desire of getting more fps has had a side effect which has been an increased tollerance to recoil.  I think that if the .45-70 had the recoil it has now (buffalo bore and garrett loads) back in the 20-30's it would have died out real fast.  People just didnt see the need for that much recoil especially with no recoil pads.  Now we have all the magnums to compare to and nice soft rubber recoil pad on the butt of the gun the heavy hitting .45-70 is acceptable.  

For me I dont really need a .45-70 or .500 (I live in Arkansas) but that isnt the point but if Marlin could figure out a way to chamber the .500 s&w in a lever action then I will be getting one (dont really know why but something about a .50 cal leveraction just sounds fun)

you right about me just being able to read about older cartidges and the way it was back when but I dont have many other ways to find out about them.  

Also forgot to mention that the .35 rem is better then both the .45-70 or the .500   :twisted:

[RugerNo3]

Some reminiscing on 50 vs 45 cal in history. The Army searched for a replacement for the 50-70 500 and found the 45-70 500 was ballisticly superior, hence it became tthe standard infantry round in 1873 (as the 45Colt was adapted in cavalry as a metallic revolver cartridge rhe same year). With the Sandy Hooks Test results, the 45-70 405 loading became the calvary standard ;oading.

Bill Ruger brought out his #1 and the old Trap Door shooters bugged him to bring out a 45-70 chambering since they could work up some nice duplex BP loads in a strong firearm. He did and chambered it in the 45-70 500 military chamber dimensions. This did not meet the 2.55" COL for the
factory produced 45-70 405 smokeless.
Somewhere in the late 70's he reverted to the SAAMI spec chambers.
My 1975 #3 has the original long chamber and the 500gr Hornady load will go 2.93"COL. Marlin introduced the 1895 when they realized Ruger's success.

[olbiffer]

the 45-70, because it is what it is.

[dodd3]

hornady hand book vol 11 500grain round nose 1800 fps. adi powder australia.
58.5 grains of bench mark 2. 400 grain bullet 1986fps that load gives a muzzle energy of 3504.0831 foot pounds.
bernie  :wink:

[Redcat376]

There are a lot of new cartridges coming out like the .17 mach2, 17 hmr, all the wssm cartridges in 223 to 300 win mag, the 45 gap, 460 extreme and the 500 S&W. Heres the question! Are any of these new cartridges better than the calibers before? I have a 22 that shoots shorts, long and long rifle and a 22 mag! Do I need a 17 Rimfire? No and probably never will because of what I already own. I don't own a big bore rifle and I was in the market for one and after reading about the 500 S$W it intrigued me and I bought one in the handi rifle! Does it cost more to shoot and reload?
Yes but I don't care! Does it make a bigger hole than the 45/70? I think so! Will the animal killed with a 45/70 or a 500 know the difference? No!
My point is that if I owned a couple big bore rifles or hand guns then I probably wouldn't be interested in the 500 but since I don't, Then why not buy the 500. I am sure that more bullets and load data will be available for the 500 and it to will have it's own following!! Will it surpass the 45/70? Never..!! But I believe it is here to stay just like the 17 hmr..! If I didn't have my 22 mag I would own a 17 because I like it! So far 500 sales are up and for a hard hitting short range brush gun especially in a Handi is going to be hard to beat! Why is the new craze for the 300 win mag rather than the 30-06? Because the 300 has alitte more THUMP!! I'm not knocking any caliber I just feel that the 500 has alittle more thump!! IF not over the 45/70 now, I believe it will in the future! Just my thoughts!!
Have a great day!!

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

Probably the biggest advantage is that you can get a functional Springfield Trapdoor in .45-70 and kill game with it.

Hunting is a very ancient and primitive way of obtaining meat, that some people derive great satisfaction doing.  It stands to reason that using ancient and primitive tools will enhance the satisfaction.

If stepping back in time has nothing to do with it, then we'd all get our meat from the grocery store using a plastic debit card.  And someday, it will be considered ancient and primitive to buy meat that is actually derived from animals.

[glock29]

45-70 all the way !
The 500 S&W is maxed out/optimized in long pistol barrels.
Very little performance is gained in rifle length barrels.
Not so with the 45-70; when pushed to the maximum safe level for modern (Ruger #1, Handi-Rifles, bolt conversions, NOT Marlin/Winchester lever guns) firearms the 45-70 is capable of over 4000 ft/lb of muzzle energy (375 H&H territory !); the 500 S&W is not even close to this. The "Marlin" lever-gun level 45-70 loads exceed the muzzle energy potential of the 500 S&W.
What does the 500 S&W offer over the 45-70 ? Virtually nothing except .042 in bullet diameter...all this does is create a WORSE trajectory over the rainbow-like 45-70...neither round will ever be a long-range proposition; for that one should get one of the following: 300 WEATHERBY Mag, 300 Remington Ultra Mag (not short-action mag), or a 30-378 WEATHERBY Mag.

Personally, I ONLY use my King-Kong Ruger#1 (from the Hodgdon manual ONLY in the 45-70; all other manuals seem to UNDERLOAD this cartridge) loads of 350 gr @2300+fps and 400gr at 2100+ fps in my Handi Rifle.
For me, anything less than a max load is A WASTE OF CASE CAPACITY.
If you don't need a full power 45-70, I reach for a firearm with a less intense cartridge.
I usually choose to properly match the firearm/cartridge to the game persued.
My motto: there is NO SUCH THING as too MUCH gun.
Recoil-Schmecoil......
I actually shoot my 458 Lott for FUN !

[RemingtonMagnum]

HI Friends

We hear barrel that look like a sewer pipe inside!  When my NEF 10 ga. slug barrel lays on the bed by a 45/70 the 10 looks like a sewer pipe on the outside and resembles one on the outside. I would hat to dress a gut shot deer with this slug. It would be a real mess inside and outside.

Don Jackson Remington Magnum