.444 Marlin or .45/70 for deer/black bear out to 200yds?

[SeaBass]

Dreaming about what my next rifle will be. It will probably be a Marlin levergun in either .444 or .45/70. (leaning toward the.444).

I reload so factory ammo limitations are not an issue.

What do you think?

[Thebear_78]

I would definately go with the 45/70 over the 444.  The 444 is a fine cartridge but it simply won't do anything that the 45/70 won't do as well or better.  On the other hand the 45/70 will do a lot that the 444 won't do.  The range of bullet weights and selection of available bullets is much better with the 45/70.  In the 45/70 you are looking at bullet weights from 250-550gr,  for the 444 you have 180-330gr.  If you are just deer or hog hunting I think that iether will work but compents are much more readily available for the 45/70.   Another thing to conside is that if you ever needed to buy some  ammo for it the 444 is much harder to come by.  You can get several different loads for the 45/70 at almost any store here in anchorage.  

I have a stainless guide gun that I use for a lot of my big game hunting and backup/bear protection use.  I reload and have one load that works for all of my hunting needs.   Its a 405gr JSP with H322 in starline brass for 1950fps.  I use a kodiak bonded for bears/moose, and the remington bulk 405gr bullet for practice and deer.  It shoots plenty flat enough for shots out to 200 yards and has plenty of power for anything your going to run into in north america.   I really like the scout setup on the guide gun also and recomend looking into that option.  If zeroed dead on at 150 yards with the scout scope I am 3" high at 100 and 8" low at 200 yards.  Thats a fur on hold out to 200 yards.  Its also fairly easy to shoot out to 200 yards even with the low power scout scope.

Here is my guide gun.

[SeaBass]

Bear,
  I was initially planning on a guide gun in .45/70.  The only people I know who have shot the Guide guns have said they were VERY loud with Lots of muzzle flash.  I wish it came with a 20" non-ported barrel.  The 1895 w/the 22" barrel or 444 are the 2 rifles I'm currently considering.  I see they stopped porting the 18.5" barrels so maybe they are a bit better than the ported barrels.  I've shot the 444 and it's a pussy cat.  I've fired 500gr .45/70 hot loads through a single shot NEF that kicked with authority!

  I will probably never hunt Griz or Polarbear.  However I do think the 45/70 has more to offer that the .444, I'm just not sure I really need the extra power.  

  I've handled the guide guns and they are SWEET, but I would think you would be sacrificing a good bit of velocity with an 18.5" vs a 22" barrel.  The 1895 is 1/2 pound heavier than the GG and 3.5" longer so I admit it is an attractive option to me.  I just haven't met any advocates of it in my neck of the woods so I am kind of turned off from it.

  Since you hunt much larger creatures that I, I would love to hear of its actual performance on those big critters.  I would also like to hear your opinion on the noise/ muzzle flash issue.  Also whats the recoil like with those 405 grainers?

[Leverdude]

Never shot a 444 but cant see what t could do better than a 45/70 especially if your hunting in the woods. Maybe at longer ranges the 444 might gain an edge. I  have a Guide gun & its ported. No big deal really hunting but it can be annoying while just shooting. Ear protection is a must. I blasted a squirrel one morning outside my camp in NH & I'll never shoot that gun again while standing beside a building without muffs. Hunting tho  honestly never notice it.
IMO in factory ammo the 405's kick less than the 300's & 350's. They dont move real fast but they sure plunk right thru a whitetail with almost no meat damage. I'v taken deer with factory Rem 405 - 1300 fps, Win 300 hp 1880 fps & PMC 405 hardcast 1250 or 1350 depending where you look, either way it aint no lazer beam.    I'll not be using anything but 405's unless I go somewhere that longer shots mght happen. For me 100 yards is a long shot where I hunt. I'v shot the PMC 350 +p load & its acurate in my gun. I believe its listed at 2025 fps but cant say what it really does except that its a thumper. Couldnt see any need for it so when they were gone I got no more.
I'll ether be using the PMC 405's again this year or my Rossi 357 f I find a load I like in time.

[SeaBass]

Thanks Leverdude.  That brings up a good point that I forgot to ask.  How accurate are the guide guns and the 45/70 in general.  The 444 Marlin I shot was quite accurate.

[Leverdude]

I dont shoot much paper but 75 yards gves cloverleafs if I'm using a rest, the target below I shot the center group at 75 offhand with the PMC 405 load & a cheap shotgun scope.

[NYH1]

I went with the 444 Marlin. I'll use mine for black bear and wild boar hunting. The 45-70 is better for larger game like grizzle bear, but why deal with the extra recoil if you don't need it. The 444 Marlin is great for black bear, wild boar, elk and even moose, especially if you "roll your own"! If I was too hunt the above mentioned game in grizzle bear country I would get the 45-70....just incase. jmho! :grin:

[leverfan]

SeaBass, since you reload, why not follow your first impulse and get the .444.  You don't even really need to reload for it, these days, because a number of good factory rounds have come out in the last 5 years or so.

This is like the .270 Winchester vs. 30-06 Springfield debate.  Both are excellent hunting rounds.  One kicks a little less, one carries a little more bullet weight.  Each has their pundits, but the animals getting shot with them can't hardly tell the difference, so go with what you like.

If Kodiaks and polar bears were in your hunting future, you might want to go with the .45-70 (or maybe a .375 H&H), but for the rest of the big game, flip a coin.  There is no practicle field advantage for either round when it comes to hunting in the lower 48, provided you're loading both to their full, safe velocity potentials.

[Dana C]

Don't shoot either at 200 yards.  Get closer or don't take the shot unless you really know your load, trajectory, and are really good.  While both rounds can do the job, I still would try for a closer shot to avoid a wounded running bear scenario which could be bad for both of you.
Dana

[dawei]

Dreaming about what my next rifle will be. It will probably be a Marlin levergun in either .444 or .45/70. (leaning toward the.444).

I reload so factory ammo limitations are not an issue.

What do you think?

SeaBass I think (also) you should go with your gut & get the 444 Marlin®. I am totally in love with mine. While I haven't killed a bear with it yet IT ABSOLUTELY KNOCKS THE SLOBBER OUT OF OUR BIG ROOSEVELT ELK! It has a lot flatter trajectory at longer ranges. The Hornady® Light Magnum® 265gr FP is a super round for the 444. Additionally look at the figures for the 444 vs 45/70 in the new Hornady® LEVERevolution® ammo. Look at what it did on elk in the video.

The 444 Marlin will be SUPERB FOR YOUR NEEDS!

[EsoxLucius]

When loaded to their potential with the right loads either will do the job on black bear at 200 yards if the shooter does theirs.  The 45-70 shoots just as "flat" as the 444 and hits harder while doing so.

[smk]

I have owned both and I like the 444 better especially if shooting at 200yd.  2300 fps with a Nosler 250 partition shoots flatter than any 45-70 load I have come up with and still makes a plenty big hole. I like the 45-70 better for cast bullets because the 444 has a short throat and bullet seating depth is restriced by overall length issues so it is hard to crimp most bullets where they should be crimped and still get them to chamber or cycle through the action.