Handi-Rifle Caliber Recommendation Needed

[bfpgw]

I own a couple NEF firearms, 243/.50 Huntsman and some shotguns.  I currently use a Marlin 1894C .357 for deer hunting, but went to a new hunting spot where I will need to make some shots longer than 125-150yds.  Thought I would move to a different caliber and have that barrel installed on the Huntsman receiver.

I would prefer not to use a barrel that requires a scope.  My wife uses the .243 with a 3-9 scope just fine. For me, using a scope is as unhandy as wearing a turtle neck shirt.  It works good, but it gets in my way.  I'll need some info on what type of rear and front sights to put on it too.  I suspect the stock ones won't be as good as possibly a Lyman/Williams combo or something similar.

I hope to be able to utilize a caliber and sights that would allow me to make reliable 200 yd shots and possibly out to 250 but that would likely be the extent of my eye's abilities.

Let me know of anything you think may help.

[Mac11700]

I'm not a open sited type guy...I much prefere using a scope for my hunting needs...but I do know H&R offers a 270-280-308-30-06 barrel with open sites thru their barrel accessory program...and they also offer a 7-08 super-lite as well...although the superlites can be real troublesome to get it to shoot good,they would all work for your needs quite well...caliber selection at 250 yards isn't really an issue..nor is the trajectory differences between the factory offerings...however..if you intend to use this for something larger than deer class animals..look to the 280...or the 30-06...both are capable of taking much larger critters than deer...

If you don't have the high monte carloo stock on yours and it fits you for the Huntsman open sites...you should be ok...and putting on a good Williams or Lyman  peep site would work pretty good as well...

Mac

[bladerunner]

Mac,I've heard that the word "superlight" on the barrel accesory page,when referring to the 7MM-08, was a mis-print and that it had a standard taper?

but otherwise,like Mac said,caliber out to 250 yards is not a problem on deer.

[bfpgw]

Thanks for the responses guys.  I assumed the 30-06 was a good one for deer to 20+ yards, but didn't think they offered rifle sights on the NEF barrels for those.  I would much prefer something that doesn't feel like a Howitzer against my shoulder as I assume the 45-70 or 500SW would.  I assumed the 45-70 was a good choice given it's reputation for buffalo hunting at longer distances.  But of course, that was a long time ago and stories/results can be "tweaked" a bit over time.

I'll get in touch with NEF about the possibility of getting one of those suggested with iron sights or the ability to add them.  I can be a bit of a traditionalist when it comes to shooting hence my preference for no scope.  That coupled with the cumbersome nature and extra weight of the scope I would like to stay away from them.

Funny story and example of my preference for iron:
My wife is a somewhat inexperienced hunter.  This weekend she was taking coaching for deer from an experienced female hunter.  Unfortunately they are good friends so the chatter boxes didn't notice two fine heavy does until they were strolling about 25 yards from the stand.  At that range my wife could only find brown fur in her scope and missed a chance at either one of two big does.  I like to see what I am shooting even if it looks like a fat ant in my sights.

[bladerunner]

I actually didn't know they offered the 30-06,270,etc with open sights,either,but Mac is usually up on what you can get.
as for what kind of sights ,I'm lost.I hunt almost exclusively with scopes...3X9 usually....and tell your wife to keep it on the lowest power till she NEEDS more...i've had that happen,too.....a deer walk up and i have my scope cranked up,and all you can see a shoulder shot on is a FLEA on the deer,lol

[Mac11700]

While open sites are fine...a small fixed.low power scope doesn't add too much bulk to the gun..nor spoil it's lines..and gives you better defining abilities over tired old eyes like mine...I think the Weavers are like 8oz...and are very small in lenght too..Quickdtoo just picked one up for a good price..so he can tell ya more about it specs.....so take a look at some of them before you entirely dismiss them...I personally use a Leupold VX-1.. 2x7x33 on my 45-70...and it is a 250 yard deer gun...since at the velocities I'm shooting it only drops 5.69" at that distance...so...don't rule out one of the best cartridges ever put in a Handi... :wink:

Mac

[quickdtoo]

IIRC, you can get barrel sights on any caliber, you just need to ask for it in lieu of the scope base. That said, barrel sights are not accurate enough for 200yd+ shots, I don't like em beyond 100yds with my old eyes. But you can get a Williams WGRS or FP sight for it that is extremely accurate for long range shooting that mounts in the 2 rear scope base holes. Check out the sticky at the top of this list titled FYI...Handi Peep and Firesights

As Mac has mentioned, a low fixed power scope like the Weaver 2½x20 costs $115 and only weighs 7oz and is 9½" long, isn't much of a cumberance, but it extremely quick to use!! I have one mounted on my .30-30.

[bfpgw]

Your responses, and some of the other posts I browsed here bring me to a few other questions:
1.  I just thought I would need a 45/70 to go out to 200 yds and be enough to shoot deer, given what NEF offers for iron sighted barrels.  The scoped rifle I see in the last post is a 30-30.  I know that's a tried and true deer cartridge but does it reach effectively to 200 yards?

2.  Is the recoil of a 45/70 with factory ammo any worse than my .50 Hunstman with a 410 Hornady Buffalo Bore lead conical over 100gr of pyrodex?

3.  I know "Quigley" was just a movie and he shot a 45-120, but were there shooters of 45-70 rifles really good out to 300 and 400 yards?

By the way, I appreciate the low power scope references.  That is much more reasonable than open sights but I thought it would be worth a try to utilize open sights.  Of course, the good peep type sights will set you back more $$$ than a decent scope but they don't weigh as much and look bad.  I'm always afraid I'll go bump in the night and knock the scope off of aim while carrying or transporting it.

FYI - I told my wife the next time she is in the blind with her "coach" she should take her Glock 9mm just in case they get distracted again.  She can hit a deer sized target at 25 yards with that thing.  Federal's personal protection rounds should be enough to bring down a dow at 15-25 yards.  The rest of our hunt club still thinks they were sleeping.

[myarmor]

IIRC, you can get barrel sights on any caliber, you just need to ask for it in lieu of the scope base.

So you can get any caliber from the barrel program with open sights if you ask for it instead of scope mount??? Just asking for a little clairfying of this :wink:

[quickdtoo]

Aaron, I'm pretty sure that's true, you should ask em first to be sure, though. Seems to me I remember someone previously doing this, but you know how things in the old memory banks get a little fuzzy!! :-D

bfpgw, Black powder cartridge matches are shot at ranges out to 1000yds!!!

The .30-30 with the right bullet choice is an easy 200yd deer caliber....there's even factory ammo available now that will do it....

http://hornady.com/story.php?s=198

There's a lot of factory ammo available for the 45-70, some of which will have considerably more recoil than the 100gr BP load. Loads below are from a 2003 list, prices and availability may vary and have changed....

$41.54 250g @ 2200fps, 2687fpe, Barnes X Flat Nose (Conley)
$20.00 300g @ 1810fps, 2182fpe (Remington @ Remington web site)
$20.39 300g @ 1880fps, 2355fpe (Winchester JHP, Natchez)
$20.60 300g @ 1880fps, 2355fpe (Federal, Natchez)
$29.81 300g @ 1880fps, 2355fpe (Winchester Partition Gold, Natchez)
$22.84 300g @ 2100fps, 2938fpe, HP (Conley)
$44.66 300g @ 2100fps, 2938fpe, Barnes Original Flat Point (Conley)
$32.50 300g @ 2100fps, 2938fpe, Nosler Partition (Protected Point) (Conley)
$41.54 300g @ 2100fps, 2938fpe, Barnes X Flat Nose (Conley)
$25.08 350g @ 1970fps, 3017fpe, Hornady JFP (Conley)
$34.89 350g @ 1800fps, 2519fpe, BCSP (Corbon @ Corbon web site)
$19.47 350g @ 2025fps, 3188fpe, PMC @CheaperThanDirt.com)
$39.99 350g @ 2150fps, 3593fpe (Buffalo Bore Ammo @ Cabelas)
$24.99 400g @ 1250fps, 1388fpe (Black Hills @ Cabelas)
$44.66 400g @ 1900fps, 3207fpe, Barnes Original Flat Point (Conley)
$54.46 400g @ 1900fps, 3207fpe, Swift A-Frame Flat Point (Conley)
$12.99 405g @ 1350fps, 1639fpe (PMC @ Cabelas)
$18.99 405g @ 1100fps, 1088fpe (Ultramax @ Cabelas)
$22.50 405g @ 1325fps, 1579fpe, RNFP (Conley)
$18.99 405g @ 1330fps, 1590fpe (Remington @ Cabelas)
$24.50 405g @ (Winchester @ Cascade Ammunition web site)
$35.57 405g @ 1700fps, 2600fpe, FPPE (Corbon @ Corbon web site)
$22.99 405g @ 1900fps, 3247fpe, JSP (Conley)
$39.99 405g @ 2000fps, 3597fpe (Buffalo Bore Ammo @ Cabelas)
$50.00 420g @ 1850fps, 3200fpe (Garrett)
$39.99 430g @ 1925fps, 3537fpe (Buffalo Bore Ammo @ Cabelas)
$34.50 460g @ 1650fps, 2780fpe, HC (Corbon @ Corbon web site)
$41.99 500g @ (Obsolete Ammunition @ Cabelas)
$52.99 500g @ 1625fps, 2931fpe (Buffalo Bore Ammo @ Cabelas)
$50.00 540g @ 1550fps, 2880fpe (Garrett)
$180.00 500g @ 1530fps, 2600fpe (Speer AGS Tungsten, Garrett)

The best Williams FP target is still only $70, the WGRS half that and a front sight is $25, any scope worth much is going to cost that or more.

I've had a $250 Luepold 2-7x scope mounted on a BLR for 22yrs, it's only been adjusted when I've changed loads, holds zero forever and it gets used hard, a lot!! Good mounts and optics aren't gonna letcha down. The Japan built 2½x20 Weaver is a great scope, a lot of dangerous game rifles have these mounted on them, that's where I learned about it...

http://theopticzone.com/detail.aspx?ID=2527

[Mac11700]

Your responses, and some of the other posts I browsed here bring me to a few other questions:
1.  I just thought I would need a 45/70 to go out to 200 yds and be enough to shoot deer, given what NEF offers for iron sighted barrels.  The scoped rifle I see in the last post is a 30-30.  I know that's a tried and true deer cartridge but does it reach effectively to 200 yards?

2.  Is the recoil of a 45/70 with factory ammo any worse than my .50 Hunstman with a 410 Hornady Buffalo Bore lead conical over 100gr of pyrodex?

3.  I know "Quigley" was just a movie and he shot a 45-120, but were there shooters of 45-70 rifles really good out to 300 and 400 yards?

By the way, I appreciate the low power scope references.  That is much more reasonable than open sights but I thought it would be worth a try to utilize open sights.  Of course, the good peep type sights will set you back more $$$ than a decent scope but they don't weigh as much and look bad.  I'm always afraid I'll go bump in the night and knock the scope off of aim while carrying or transporting it.

FYI - I told my wife the next time she is in the blind with her "coach" she should take her Glock 9mm just in case they get distracted again.  She can hit a deer sized target at 25 yards with that thing.  Federal's personal protection rounds should be enough to bring down a dow at 15-25 yards.  The rest of our hunt club still thinks they were sleeping.

1)..Yes..with the right loads...the 30-30 is more than capable of dropping a deer at 200 yards...I've seen it done on several occasions by some pretty good shots.If you handload Sierra's 150 grain spitzer for this round..you have a cartridge with a MPBR of 234 yards with a 6" kill zone and the rifle will be dead on at 200 yards..-2.13" low at 225...-4.81 at 250 yards..still having 1160 FPE at that distance...this is another load that should be sighted in a 3" high at 100 yards to achive this figuring the scope to be 1.5" above the bore...

2)..Since recoil is subjective to the person firing it...even rifles that have more than one may feel different or less punishing...but figuring a 8.5 rifle shooting a 400 grain projectile at 1500 fps with 100 grains of powder thru point blank shows it gives roughly 43 ft.lbs of recoil...on my 45-70 using Winchesters Supreme factory ammo with the Nosler 300 grain partition at 1800 fps... which has 53 grains of powder in it and my gun weighing 9.5 lbs gives roughly 21 ftlbs of recoil......even going up the ladder to my 2434 fps with the Nosler increases it to about 33ft.lbs...so from all accounts it looks like it recoils less..

3)..Quigley was just a movie...but Tom Selleck from all accounts is still a pretty darn good shot with his rifle...and yes..Buff Hunters took much longer shots than just 300-400 yards and were proficient enough to almost wipe out the buffalo...so..that's something to remember..

4)...good scopes can take a-lot of rough handling before losing their zero..from getting banged up in truck or bouncing around on a atv...the thing to remember is don't scrimp on quality..cheap scopes don't last...

Mac

Thanks Quick...I forgot about the new Hornady choice :agree:

[.308]

So you can get any caliber from the barrel program with open sights if you ask for it instead of scope mount??? Just asking for a little clairfying of this :wink:

I don't know if you can or not. Wouldn't hurt to ask. However neither of my 26'' (25-06/.280) barrels have holes drilled for open sights, only drilled for scope bases.

[quickdtoo]

IIRC, you can get barrel sights on any caliber, you just need to ask for it in lieu of the scope base.

So you can get any caliber from the barrel program with open sights if you ask for it instead of scope mount??? Just asking for a little clairfying of this :wink:

Yes, you can, they just charge for it if it's not a regular offering!!! I knew I saw it sometime, just didn't remember everything!!

http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=44394&highlight=factory+iron+sights

[Woodbutcher]

Dear bfpgw:
 I've got a Handi in 45/70, and I'd like to put my $0.02 in
 (1) the 45/70 kicks! Not bad offhand, but ...interesting off the bench,  when the shooting posture ain't the best for absorbing recoil. Might be on parr with the BP outfit you described.
 (2) The 4x scope is coming off and getting replaced with a 2 1/2x, for the reasons already discussed.
 (3)The 45/70 has and is being used to 1000 yds. for target. Heavier rifles than our Handys for sure, and something a little steadier than offhand.
 (4) 30/30 reaching 200 yds, sure, no problem. Effectively? H-MMM! I'd better let someone else chime in on that one. 200 yds. is a fer piece, a bit more horsepower might be in order.
 I can appreciate your thoughts about iron sights, I like 'em, and I'd like to use them, but I need some help. Some where around 75 to 100 yards, them deer get kinda fuzzy. Dark background, dark deer, low light, and I'm in trouble. It ain't the magnification, its the brighter picture.
 In my late teens I owned a rifle with a Sourdough Patridge front and a Williams Peep. I removed the insert in the Peep and was happy with the large aperture. That big square brass post up front was very reassuring.
 Your Huntsman should be able to reach out very nicely, with the load you described, at the distances you want. A few holes in paper can answer a lot of questions about range capability.            Woodbutchet

[quickdtoo]

 (4) 30/30 reaching 200 yds, sure, no problem. Effectively? H-MMM! I'd better let someone else chime in on that one. 200 yds. is a fer piece, a bit more horsepower might be in order.
 

How much more horsepower is needed for deer!! 1000 ft/lbs is the accepted minimum for deer, the Hornady factory ammo has 1304ft/lbs energy at 200yds and over 1000ft/lbs at 300yds. A 3" high 100yd zero is dead on at 200yds. It don't get no better than that for a factory round and at $13.50 a box, ain't too bad on the pocketbook, either!! :wink:

[Woodbutcher]

Now ya see, Quick, why I let someone else "chime in", someone who knows?
 That is pretty impressive performance, considering what was available in times past.                      
                                                        Woodbutcher

[quickdtoo]

The pointy bullets make the difference, the handloading Handi and single shot owners have know this all along, just enough to make a difference....a bit farther away!! :-D  :-D  :-D

[myarmor]

I go to work, come back and you all got it all figured out. Thanks for the thread link Tim. It's interesting one can get iron sights for any rifle...for a price. Though isn't everything like that   It's kinda nice that NEF/H&R is lenient with their products, being a smaller company :agree:
I personally opt for scopes myself, but depends on the shooter and his or her style and caliber.
Still, Ya can't beat a good scope though :wink:
-Aaron

[Woodbutcher]

Well Quick, as usual, you showed me something I needed to know. Looked up the Hornady site from your post, cause I noticed 45/70 on the chart. VERY interesting! Thanks much.                      Woodbutcher

[bajabill]

I have this important tidbit of info to offer, for the movie buffs

from IMDB


Trivia for
Quigley Down Under (1990)

    * The infamous gun that is used by the main character Matthew Quigley is a replica model 1874 Sharps Buffalo Rifle. Just as the movie states, it is fitted to fire .45-110 paper patch black powder cartridges, and has a barrel length of 34 inches, four inches longer than the original. The original rifle used in the movie was made by one of the replica makers, and a total of three were provided.


Elliott Marston: Ah ha. Legendary Sharps.
Matthew Quigley: You know your weapons. It's a lever-action, breech loader. Usual barrel length's thirty inches. This one has an extra four. It's converted to use a special forty-five caliber, hundred and ten grain metal cartridge, with a five-hundred forty grain paper patch bullet. It's fitted with double set triggers, and a Vernier sight. It's marked up to twelve-hundred yards. This one shoots a mite further.



Hey, Im not trying to pile on you 45-120 owners now, but it wasnt used for buffalo and wasnt in the movie  


 :twisted:  :twisted:

[Mac11700]

bajabill:

The reference for the 45-120 and Quigley..."3. I know "Quigley" was just a movie and he shot a 45-120, but were there shooters of 45-70 rifles really good out to 300 and 400 yards?"...was for emphasis as I took it... more for the later part of the question about the 45-70 being good out to 300-400 yards and folks being able to shoot it accuratly at those distances...and your right about the oversite on his caliber...it was a 45-110

Mac