180 grain pointed ammo in the 30-30: Is it possible?

[coyote trapper1929]

If Hornady expands their LeverEvolution line of ammo, what would the ballistics be for a 180 grain pointed round in the 30-30 Winchester.

Thanks,

[PaulS]

The Wunchester's design of tubular magazine is not designed for the use of pointed bullets. I think the Marlin rifles allow pointed bullets because it holds the rounds in a spiral with the points at the sidewall of the tube rather than with the point hitting the primer of the next round.

[Castaway]

Two issues are on the table here.  One is the new line of ammunition being developed by Hornady that is supposedly pointed and safe to use in tubular fed magazines.  As far as Marlin lever action rifles, they are no safer than a Winchester using conventional pointed bullets.  The tubular magazine does not misalign the bullets in a Marlin and they are not safe.  The proof will be in the pudding if Hornady pulls it off but I see a new generation of reloaders learning the lesson the hard way thinking that any pointed bulet must be okay since one company has cracked the code and can do it.

[SLAVAGE]

the hornady web sight  shows the bullet tip being ""mushy"" so it looks to be able to be compreasd instead of pushing in on the primer... but having say 41 44 an 45 cal pointed bullets makes haven a 445 444 & 441 mags more inticing

[skb2706]

Seems like somebody is always trying to make a 30-30 do something it wasn't made to do. Is there some kind of problem using 170 gr. RN bullets in a gun made specifically for those and shooting deer at around 150 yds. or so. Pointed bullets are not necessarily more accurate, typically not made for slower speeds of the 30-30 and cannot be made retroactively safe to use "across the board" in a lever gun. Another idea to solve a problem that does not exist.

[quickdtoo]

Here's a little readin for those interested...

http://hornady.primediaoutdoors.com/HDstory1.html

[skb2706]

Its not even a little odd to me that this is the same Hornady that claims 4225 fps from their .204 ruger but nobody I have conversed with to date has got that speed from theirs. This most certainly will lead to some schmoo loading up some SSts for his thuddy-thuddy and blowin the whole works up. All in the interest of possibly gaining 18 yds. advantage....get closer.

[R.W.Dale]

Kinda strikes me as an attempt to turn 30-30 into 7.62x39 The Hornady 160gr leverution ammo has very similar ballistics to Wolf's 154gr load.
 But I gotta appluad them on the 35rem ammo it's about time someone started using this cartriges potential

[papajohn428]

No Offense to Hornady's Engineers and Marketing folks, but if I wasn't trying to stretch a cartridge beyond it's capabilities in the first place, why would I need a 300-yard levergun for woods conditions anyway?  As long as I match the gun and cartridge to the conditions I hunt, I'm fine.  My trick would be to load pointy bullets in the rifle and one in the tube, once you know they'll feed okay.  When was the last time you got more than two shots at a deer, anyway?  And if you need more than two, the ammo's not the problem, it's YOU!  

Papajohn

[Iowegan]

I used to load 150gr spire points for my 1894 Winchester. I would chamber one round and put one in the tube. Very safe, accurate, and works great. If you're any kind of shot, you seldom need more than one round anyway.

[Coyote Hunter]

Seems like somebody is always trying to make a 30-30 do something it wasn't made to do. Is there some kind of problem using 170 gr. RN bullets in a gun made specifically for those and shooting deer at around 150 yds. or so. Pointed bullets are not necessarily more accurate, typically not made for slower speeds of the 30-30 and cannot be made retroactively safe to use "across the board" in a lever gun. Another idea to solve a problem that does not exist.

I’m fairly certain the old timers of 100 years ago would have used the new Hornady ammo if it had been available then.  It isn’t so much a question of making the .30-30 “do something it wasn't made to do” as it is maximizing its capabilities.  The new Hornady ammo is still within SAAMI pressure levels.  Nor is it a matter of pointed bullets being more accurate – it’s a matter of them having a higher ballistic coefficient, which means flatter trajectory.  Nothing wrong here unless you’re one of those folks who think that muzzleloader hunters ought to be hunting in coonskin caps and leathers.

The new Hornady bullets are quite safe in tubular magazines, as Hornady’s tests have shown.  Loading up a magazine’s worth of bullets in a tube and dropping them on a concrete floor from 15 feet, they couldn’t even mark the primers, let a lone dimple one or set one off.

[Coyote Hunter]

No Offense to Hornady's Engineers and Marketing folks, but if I wasn't trying to stretch a cartridge beyond it's capabilities in the first place,

No offense meant, but think about what you wrote – it’s an oxymoron.  The Hornady ammo meets SAAMI specifications.

why would I need a 300-yard levergun for woods conditions anyway?  

Where I hunt the woods often turn into open parks or aspen glades where 300 yards shots are not at all unusual.  But forget the 300-yard shots, how about just having more retained energy at 150 yards?  I can’t think of anything wrong with that.  And who says you can only use leverguns in the woods anyway?  I took my last deer and elk at 197 and 213 lasered yards respectively.  With a Marlin .45-70 in open country, not a tree around.  By the way, my 350g .45-70 load has less drop at 300 yards than the new Hornady .45-70 Govt or 450 Marlin loads.

As long as I match the gun and cartridge to the conditions I hunt, I'm fine.  My trick would be to load pointy bullets in the rifle and one in the tube, once you know they'll feed okay.  When was the last time you got more than two shots at a deer, anyway?  And if you need more than two, the ammo's not the problem, it's YOU!  

Papajohn

Lot’s of folks have done as you suggest, but I’m one that won’t because it’s just a way of inviting Murphy into my life.  The Hornady loads don’t have anything on my .30-30 or .45-70.handloads anyway.  But I do agree that if you need more than two shots you need to take a hard look at why, and the ammo won’t be the problem.

[warf73]

I want a few boxes of bullets in the .429" 265gr. that would be a fun bullet to try in my 445SM.

HMMMM might have to buy a box of 444Marlin and pull the bullets.

Warf

[rickyp]

I can see these bulletrs working well out of a single shot handgun or rifle, but I still would not want to use a pointed bullet in a tube mag.

When I had my 30-30  Contender I use to use pointed bullets in it all the time with good results

[gino]

IIRC the old Remington pump rifles had spiral grooves in the magazine tube to prevent bullet tips from resting on primers. Never owned one and the last time I saw/handled one was 30+ years ago. I assume it worked, just wonder why no one is doing it now.
gino  

[Steve P]

Try some of the Sierra 110 HP bullets or the Nosler 125 bt.  They will really make your 30-30 perform.  I have used them in a bolt action model 340 and in my lever action.  AS STATED PREVIOUSLY - One in the chamber and ONE in the tube magazine.  Two shots is all you get, but do you need more?

Steve  

[Dirigo]

Kinda strikes me as an attempt to turn 30-30 into 7.62x39 The Hornady 160gr leverution ammo has very similar ballistics to Wolf's 154gr load.
 But I gotta appluad them on the 35rem ammo it's about time someone started using this cartriges potential

wow. for one thing, the 7.62 is less powerful, 20% less. you also say making the 30-30 better is bad, but making the 35 rem better is good?

[R.W.Dale]

Kinda strikes me as an attempt to turn 30-30 into 7.62x39 The Hornady 160gr leverution ammo has very similar ballistics to Wolf's 154gr load.
 But I gotta appluad them on the 35rem ammo it's about time someone started using this cartriges potential

wow. for one thing, the 7.62 is less powerful, 20% less. you also say making the 30-30 better is bad, but making the 35 rem better is good?

 Where did I say that it's bad? In the case of 30-30 it's an answer to a problem that does not exist.  As far as trajectory is concerned 30-30 leverution ammo trajectory is within a 1/2 inch of 154gr wolf with the x39 actually shooting flatter out to 200 yds 20% weaker huh.

 Premimum 30-30 ammo will sell about like premium 7.62x39 would not at all. But given the already high price of ammo for 35rem, 444, 45-70 and .450marlin I can see those people opting th spend a few xtra bucks.

 I keep looking at specs for the 30-30 leverution and good ol 150gr core lokt. The improvement just ins't there

[rickyp]

As far as trajectory is concerned 30-30 leverution ammo trajectory is within a 1/2 inch of 154gr wolf with the x39 actually shooting flatter out to 200 yds 20% weaker huh.

 The 7.62X39 is not as powerful as the 30-30
Taken from the book Cartridges of the world. 10 Th Edition
Page 54  for the 30-30, Page 337 for the 7.62x39
30-30   110 speer FP Velocity 2684 M.E. 1755
762X39 110 sierra HP velocity 2547 M.E. 1580
30-30 150 sierra JFP V. 2450 m.e,1995
762x39 159 sierra sp V 2072 M.E. 1430

so as you can see the 30-30 is more powerful then the 7.62x39
as for the trajectory being only with in 1/2 inch think about it this way the 30-30 uses round nose or F.P. bullets and the 7.62 uses pointed bullets
the desing of the bullets helps with bullet drop.

[R.W.Dale]

Distance (yards)         100         ,     200     ,        300      
Long Trajectory (in)    2.7           ,    0.0     ,       -15.3
       
Projectile Weight:  153.6      
B.C. 0.3302      
  7.62x39 154gr. SP       2116 fps      
       


160gr leverution          100        ,       200  ,    300

                                 +3.52  ,          0      , -14.34

2260 fps


Cartriges of the world can say that all they wan't to but that doesn't make it true. heck they still list 7.62mm nagant as using a ..295 dia bullet. Do a little research and you'll see that "standard" 150gr 30-30 loads actually shoot flatter than 160gr leverution. There is a reason that in the magazine article above they only compare to 170gr loads.

[Robert357]

The discussion so far has been interesting, but I think a little perspective is required.   I have a Marlin 336.  I love it and it will outshoot some so-so bolt actions at the range I go to under a few specific conditions.

This is where the perspective comes in.

Rifle accuracy is all about being able to replicate things precisely from shot to shot.  A tubular magazine does not lead to good accuracy.  It is usually hung from the barrel of the rifle (some 22's have them in the rear stock) and this has an effect on barrel vibrations.  Think of a tubular magazine that is full as a big weight hung from the barrel.  Then after you fire the next shot, a little less weight, and then a little less with the next.  Also think of the spring tension as it changes with the number of rounds in the tubular magazine.  This changing spring tension also changes the vibrations of the barrel.

Now if you want to develop a great long range super accurate round, in a lever action with a tubular magazine, you want to have at most one round in the chamber and one in the tubular magazine.  In such a situation it doesn't matter if the bullet is pointed or round or flat.  It is only if you want to add more rounds to the magazine and intend to use them.  But then you start degrading your repeatability as you fire each successive round.  The reason is that you are messing with the barrel natural vibration pattern.

[Larry Gibson]

coyote trapper1929

I kind of like the idea of pointed bullets in tube magazines that Hornady has come up with. I'm anxious to try them out in my 30-30. Hope Hornady releases the bullets for reloading before to long. I have been reloading the 30-30 for 43 years (started when I was 15). I have loaded and used all sorts of bullets. I prefer the M94 for black tail deer hunting in the coastal mountains or the western side of the Cascades in Oregon where 300 yard shots across a clearcut are a real possibility. However, for general deer hunting I use the Speer 130 gr at 2550 fps and 1.5 MOA accuracy (M94 carbine with 2X Leupold scout scope).  The 170s are good all around choices but for a close range thumper bullet I have long preferred the 190 Winchester Silver Tip bullet made for the .303 Savage. At 2050 fps out of the carbine it is deadly on bear/elk. With a 24" barreled M94 Legacy I had the performance was even better.  Truth be said having lived and hunted in NE Oregon for years 95% of all the deer and elk I killed in the great open high desert or canyon country has been under 200 yards with most under 100 yards. While most were killed with a bolt gun I could have done just as well with my M94 30-30. Anyway, where I hunt with the 30-30 the new Hornady bullets look to me like a very erstwhile improvement. I am going to try them and probably use them.

I also have hunted with the Hornady 150 SP loading one in the tube and one in the chamber. As mentioned Murphy is out there and he almost caught me on that one. I solved that problem with a ¼” dowel of the right length in the tube “plugging” it ala shotgun tubes. That way only one round can go into the magazine.

I’ve also considerable experience with the 7.62x39, on both ends of it. I have used it in gas guns and have a Mini Mark X Mauser bolt action in the caliber. While also satisfactory for deer hunting it in no way equals the 30-30. Regardless what some books say and some gun writers it just isn’t so.

Again, I look forward to trying this latest development from Hornady in my 30-30s. On further thought the spire pointed .35 Rems might be something in my M91 Mauser rebarreled to .35 Rem. With the 26” barrel there should be noticeable improvement in down range performance over the current available .35 Rem bullets.

Larry Gibson

[kevin.303]

probably the sipmlest solution to wanting to use pointed bullets in a .30-30 is to get eiter a Savage 325c bolt action or a 1899.

[clodbuster]

This thread clearly shows why the shooting industry is reluctant to sink big bucks in the way of new technology.  Even when a new idea is developed by a rock solid reputation company it is received with fearful skepticism by many.  Enough, maybe too much outa me.