Variation from manual to manual. What to do?

[Jeffery8mm]

As a relatively new relaoder I must pose this question.  On the 270 once again:
Speer Manual [13] list for the 130gr bullet a starting load of 43gr of 4064 IMR and a max of 47.  I found a 46gr load that will suffice well for this years hunting purpose.

The Loadbook [one book one caliber] for the 270 list in the Hornady section a starting load of 45.1 and a mx of 49.8.  WOW that is a LOT of difference. Should I try a load that "hot".  I am really trying to play this safe.  I was going to try the 47gr load listed as max by speer but stopped at the 46 so as not to go to close to max.  Now I see that hornady overshoots that by2.8 grains.  Am I going to make my wife a widow if I try this?? :shock:
That would be a double indemnity policy for her to collect on. :lol:
Thanks for any and all help

Jeff

[NE Hunter]

this is my way ......
 
I stay 10% below max ( usually never get that close before I find my accurate load) I average the load data together high and low  subtract 10% from the high average and that is my max load  
 
Anyone else have a better way??

[Idaho_Hick]

1.  The hornaday manual used a hornaday bullet.  The speer manual used a speer bullet.  Different bullets of equal weight will still create different pressure curves, all else being equal.
2.  All else is never equal.

NE hunter seems a little conservative, but there is nothing wrong with that.  I follow the oft-stated mantra of "start 10% below max and work up slow, watching for pressure signs".

Of course we are now being told that classic pressure signs are worthless, but as long as I stay below book maximum, I feel safe.  But when I see signs of pressure, I back off, even if below book.

I have learned to think of reloading manuals not as a manual, but a report.  Such and such a load, with such and such a case, primer, powder, chamber, barrell, temperature, atmosperic pressure, and phase of the moon produced these results for us.

[jcunclejoe]

There is a ton of information that you are not mentioning here, that is listed in those manuals. Things like the brass manufacturer, the primer used, the exact bullet used, the barrel type and length. All of these can effect pressure and can result in different max loads. The max loads are determined for that gun with those exact components, including that one particular lot of powder, which can vary by as much as 10% and be within manufacturers tolerances.

Please just load carefully and cautiously and remember there is not a deer in the world that can tell the difference in 100 fps, and if the difference in drop really makes a difference between a hit or a miss, then you should get closer. Which is more of a challange anyway.
Besides comparing books will eventually drive you crazy.

Joe

[skb2706]

"Besides comparing books will eventually drive you crazy. "

That might be the understatement of all handloading. Jeff .....you are comparing two sources of similar vintage. You want to really go off.......I have some loading books that date back to the early sixties......add those in for comparision....you'll buy factory ammo and forget it.

[Jeffery8mm]

Comparing books is already no fun!!

The guy at the sports shop that sold me the number 13 said,"Use it like your Bible!!!"  But what if I sub a hornady 130gr bullet for the 130 speer bullet?  Arrghh!!!  


"Please just load carefully and cautiously and remember there is not a deer in the world that can tell the difference in 100 fps, and if the difference in drop really makes a difference between a hit or a miss, then you should get closer. Which is more of a challange anyway"
WELL SAID

Jeff

[lefty o]

if you substitute one bullet for another (130gr vs. another 130gr), you need to get back to a starting load and work your way back up.

[victorcharlie]

Newer books show loads listed below the max load of the same manufacturer a couple of books published earlier......So a speer manual from the seventies will show higher loads for the same bullet and powder than a current manual.  
   
Older data was collected without the use of  more modern piezoelectric transducers and a laptop computer.........Back then, when a laptop filled a floor in a high rise, used enormous amounts of power and generated tons of heat, it wasn't practical to accurately measure c.u.p or lbs per square inch............So loads were developed using things such as head expansion, primer cratering, bolt handles hard to lift,  and loose primer pockets.....when signs appeared then the loads were backed off a few percentage points and called max............Also, manufacturing of powder has changed so, for example, IMR4350 might be a little different than IMR4350 of 1975 manufacture.........which again changes the results listed in the manuals.....  
 
I also suspect the proliferation of lawyers requires manufactures to stay "conservative" with published data..........  
   
Some of the loads I've shot for years are now listed by the newer data as being over max loads......  
   
That said, It is never wise to exceed the manufactures most current published data for a load.........Always start low and watch for visual signs of pressure as you increase the load.........first thing you'll probably see is a very flat primer possibly with a creator on the point of the firing pin strike......the bolt may be hard to lift, or chamber hard to open.  When you go to reload the case you may find the new primer fits loose in the pocket..........  
   
Next thing is a bright ring just above the head........this is where the brass is flowing from the head of the case to the neck.......you can feel a grove with a paper clip on the inside of the case.......keep increasing the load and the case will fail in this area if it doesn't blow out a primer first.........  
   
No matter what the max load is....If your below max and  you see these signs then stop and investigate the problem before going on.......

If you need to exceed max loads to achieve your desired results, then the smart play would be to use a gun chambered for a higher intensity cartride, or go up in caliber........JMH)

[Steve P]

Joe is the most correct so far (JCUNCLEJOE).   Check those new reloading manuals.  They are using different brass, primers, and their own bullets, usually in a shooting fixture.  NOT a gun, but in a shooting device in their factory or testing facility.  What is the rate of barrel twist?  What is the length of that barrel.   They are using computer software and chronographs to generate their velocity and  load data, that works in their fixture.

Find some of the old loading manuals.  They are using powders of the day (likely different than as manufactured now) but they are usually shot in an actual gun.  May have chronographs that worked per technology in those days, and most pressures were extrapolated (no computers) using calculations with pencil, pad, and equations that I wont go into.

Elmer Keith made some accurate bullets, came up with some accurate loads, and guestimated pressures, but had no equipment to do any measuring.  It was all in his head.

So, if you are like me, you will eventually end up with about a dozen manuals of various age, that you will use when working up loads.  You will get some info from other shooters, compare the info in all of your manuals, take out pad and paper, and start extrapolating down about 20% below the apparent max load, and start working your way up in small increments.  

If you have one gun, this may cost you a little to start, but you should be able to find a tack driving load.  If you have lots of guns like me and some of the other shooters on this board, you end up with boxes and boxes of various loads to try when you get a round tuit.  Sometimes, if you are married, those round tuits are hard to find.......unless you get a new Freedom Arms or something that just can't wait to blast ragged holes.

Go check Amazon, Ebay, and a few other places.  Pick up a few more manuals, including Ken Waters if you can find it.  You will learn a lot and learn to see why they are so different.

Good luck with your loads.  May the moa God's smile on you.

Steve  

[MnMike]

Because most pressure indicaters have been discounted, I use a chronograph, and try for the most conservative maximum velocity from the books I have. I also look for the older pressure signs. This is still not a perfect method, since some loads could spike above maximum pressures and still fall within the velocity range. Maybe the other thing is to buy strong guns.

mike

[George Foster]

The way I learned years ago was to average all the manuals as to the Max load.  If it came out as say 49gr average of the powder you wanted to use then I would start 2-1/2gr  below and load three rounds of 1/2gr incremental loads from 46.5gr to 49.0gr.  I use that method to this day and never have had any trouble.  Also I don't care about top velocity I only care about the most accurate load whether it is two grains below max or at max.  As you can tell I only start about 5% below instead of 10% but it has worked for me and that is all I am saying.

[Redhawk1]

If you usa a brand of bullet, use the same brand manual. If you look at a Hornady book and a Barnes book you will see a big difference. I only use the books load for the same brand of bullet I am loading. You will find you need more than one manual if you use different brands of bullets. Fun Fun Fun.  

[warf73]

victorcharlie
 
Newer books show loads listed below the max load of the same manufacturer a couple of books published earlier......So a speer manual from the seventies will show higher loads for the same bullet and powder than a current manual.

Older data was collected without the use of more modern piezoelectric transducers and a laptop computer.........Back then, when a laptop filled a floor in a high rise, used enormous amounts of power and generated tons of heat, it wasn't practical to accurately measure c.u.p or lbs per square inch............So loads were developed using things such as head expansion, primer cratering, bolt handles hard to lift, and loose primer pockets.....when signs appeared then the loads were backed off a few percentage points and called max............Also, manufacturing of powder has changed so, for example, IMR4350 might be a little different than IMR4350 of 1975 manufacture.........which again changes the results listed in the manuals.....
 
 

I disagree with this statement. I have 3 Hornady manuals 1 from the mid 60’s another from the mid 90’s and the latest from this year (not sure when the actual data was taken)
I was looking at the data for my 300WBY, 460WBY and the data is exactly the same in all 3 manuals. I also looked up data for the 445SM and the data was exactly the same in 2 of the manuals (445SM didn’t come out until the 70’s). This wasn’t the case in all calibers I looked up, and I’m still not sure why that is.

So my question is what really changed from say 1965 to 2005?

Also the statement with the powders being different is very true BUT if you read your reloading manual. When changing lots of powder you should always use caution and start low and work your way back to your charge. This being said IMR4350 Lot#123456 could be different that IMR 4350 Lot #234567.

But the most important part is, if you are reloading with Honady bullets then use there manual/data. Same with Speer and Sierra and so on.

Comparing data from book to book is stupid and dangerous sorry for sounding rude but it’s true. Take your data from the Hornady/Speer book using a 130gr. bullet and now stuff a 130gr. Swift Scirocco on that same charge of powder and you probly blow yourself up.

This is the reason why almost every bullet manufacture has a reloading manual.

Warf

[Jeffery8mm]

I guess this is where the " One Book One Caliber" loadbooks are worth EVERY penny, huh?

Jeff

[victorcharlie]

Warf.........Ok....so Hornadys is the same for those calibers....I love consistency don't you?......Maybe my statement was to general in nature.......I didn't mean that all the data was different........but some of it is........Older sierra .243 winchester listed 47 grains of IMR4831 with the 85 grain BTHP.......The latest Sierra Manual list 44.5 as the max load.........I've shot 46 grains for years, and it's a very accurate load in my rifle........47 grains did flatten primers in my rifle and IMO was to hot for my rifle.....46 grains in my Ruger ultra light flattened primers and was to hot for that rifle.......I'm just using this particular load as an example of how the data could be different..........just a "heads up".....if you look in the powder manufactures manual, their data for a particular bullet and caliber may very well be different from the bullet manufactures....
 
Chambers vary from rifle to rifle, brass varies.....powder changes from lot to lot and so do primers..........bullet seating depth can be different......pressures will be different, at least to a degree from rifle to rifle, and what is safe in one may not be safe in another.......
 
The good news is that most modern rifles will probably survive a hot load that's listed in an earlier manual........pistols are where I see the potential for big problems as it's easy to double charge or triple charge a pistol case....... this is not a problem with the data, but with the process......meaning be carefully when loading rounds that us a load that doesn't fill the case........
 
Some of these guys are just starting to reload.......hopefully as they progress they'll learn how to tell when they might be getting into trouble......I was just trying to point out that there are things to look for no matter what load your shooting that could be an indication of whether the load is safe or not.......and not to consider anyones data as absolute......

Sorry for the confusion......

[Steve P]

[quote="warf73]Comparing data from book to book is stupid and dangerous sorry for sounding rude but it’s true. Take your data from the Hornady/Speer book using a 130gr. bullet and now stuff a 130gr. Swift Scirocco on that same charge of powder and you probly blow yourself up.

This is the reason why almost every bullet manufacture has a reloading manual.

Warf[/quote]

I have been comparing data from book to book for almost 40 years.  I have yet to have any type of reloading accident.  I have numerous guns that will shoot ragged hole groups.  I have also shot with, shot shoot-offs ageinst, spotted for, and stayed with world champions.  Funny thing is, they have lots of reloading books too.

My buddy and I make our own jacketed bullets, how are we to get data, if we don't go thru books of other published data?   How to other wildcat makers get data for these new wildcat rounds if they don't go thru other published data.

Throwing in maximum or over maximum charges without properly working up loads using similar components is stupid.

Making up reloads starting 10% below max, with three different mfg bullets is how a lot a folks find their pet load, and there is nothing dangerous about it, if you do your homework first.

Like I said in a previous post, check the loading manual and see if they are using a shooting fixture to come up with their data.  Are you going to run buy a gun to match the twist rate and length?  No, you are going to safely start with the suggested starting loads and work up with your gun.

Many of the powders out there today are made the same as they were 40-50 years ago.  Many of the bullet manufacturers have not changed their data because the bullets and powder have not changed enough to make a noticable difference.  Doesn't mean you don't work up to your load.

Steve  

[Robert357]

Am I going to make my wife a widow if I try this?? ....That would be a double indemnity policy for her to collect on.

Actually, it is even worse than that.  

I keep an old copy of an Alliant 2400 powder loading for a 357 Mag load in with my reloading notebook as a reminder.  Alliant had a website that allows you to print out loadings.  I wanted to do up some powerful 357 Mag loads.  For a jacketed 158grain JSP it said that I could go up to 15.2 grains (still have the print out).  

I loaded up a bunch of rounds that went from 13.7 to 15.1 grains of powder in 5 round for each loading separated by 0.2 grains of powder each.  I figured that should be plenty safe!

I then went to the range and shot them, taking notes on accuracy.  I started to notice overpressure signs at about 14.1 grains of powder, at 14.5 grains of powder, I was taking spent shells into the rangemaster's office to have someone else check and see if I was over-reacting.  After all, the max load was 15.2 grains according to the powder manufacturer!  

I fired one 14.7 grain load and it was very hard to extract from my Ruger Blackhawk (thank goodness Ruger makes them strong).  I said enough is enough and went home and pulled the rest of the more powerful bullets.  I figured that I was one of the world's biggest chickens.  Oh, well, I was feeling very uncomfortable.

After a couple weeks I went back to the website and it had been changed.  The max load got reduced from 15.2 grains down to 14.0 grains.  Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!

Lessons learned:  Watch for overpressure signs and stop at the first sign.  Never, ever assume that the manual knows better.  Always play it safe and never feel bad about backing off.

[JDBurke]

Being new to this forum, but not new to reloading, there are only a couple of things I’d add to the many good comments presented. First, you can’t do enough research. I have a shelf 2 feet long loaded with bullet and powder manufacturers load books. I spend time on the net looking at even more load information. It’s all good reading. Second, working up a load and carefully watching for pressure indications has been for me, the best safest way to reload. Lastly, (I reload mostly military calibers) be very aware that sometimes 10% lower starting loads may not be enough. Reloading is a balancing act. Most all listings in the manuals will list the components used in establishing the data. Change a component and you change that balance some. Change a couple of components and you may change the balance a lot. (Add in some once fired military brass with thicker webs, and try to use data from a manual that’s for commercial brass, and things can really get interesting. Don’t ask how I know…trust me.)  Above all, be safe (wear your safety glasses) and have fun.

John

[Bullseye]

The Hornady book has changed a lot over the last 3.  Look at the 357 Max, 44 Mag, 45-70 Contender.  Those are the three that I remember.  The Speer book has also had big change.  Almost all their old loads for the 44Mag, 41Mag and 357 listed Magnum primers, not anymore though.

Very puzzling to me.

[Siskiyou]

I agree with VictorCharlie.  I have a shelve full of loading manuals, and publications going back to the 60's.  I too quickley noticed the reduction in powder charges between Speer Manual#7 and Manual #12.  I almost tossed out Manual #12.

The following is with a .270 win.

Using IMR4064 as an example, in M#7 a max. load was 49 grains with a 130 grain bullet.  Listed velocity was 3077 fps from a 24 inch barrel.

Using IMR4064 again but using M#12 max load is 47 grains for 2801 fps out of a 22-inch barrel.

I have reviewed my Lyman manuals dating back to 1960 and they agree on a maxium charge of 49 grains of 4064 with a 130 bullet.

As a teenager I was full bore and went with the 49 grain Max on the advise of local gun store owner.  He also was one of those who got me into reloading.  I found out that at 49 grains case life was short.  While the load worked great in my rifle, it would stick in my brothers .270.  I felt that was a true advantage because it kept him out of my ammo box.

I used that load on jackrabbits, wood chucks, and deer.  After two or three hundred Remington Bronze point bullets, I switched to Cor-Lokts, and Hornaday bullets.

IMR4064 produced very accurate loads.  But I have to agree with Speer, and 47 grains IMR4064 is the true max in my rifle.

At one time 58 grains of H4831 was considered Max when pushing a 150 grain bullet out of a .270.  The EXCEPTION was Serria.  I went to work and found that 56.5 grains pushing a 150 grain Norma Match bullet, or most other 150 grain bullets worked great in my .270's.  But when I switched to the 150 grain Serria BT.   I had to cut the load to 56 grains with the Serria BT.  One key item I did not have when doing all this back in the 60's was a chrony.  A recent check of published loads now show 56 grains of H4831 as MAX.

The best move I made was switching to slower burning powders, they gave high velocity with lower pressure.  Case life was better and accuracy was good.  IMR4350 and H4831 are better powders in the .270 Win.  If you review a number of manuals you will see that there are other better performing powders for the .270 Win. then IMR4064.

It does not mean that proper IMR4064 loads are unsafe.  It just reachs its limits faster in the .270Win. case.

[Slamfire]

Your load book will show the min/max from each of the major manuals. You can either average the min for a starting load, or at the lowest. Then use the lowest max as your max, or get a chronograph. There models for under $100. Start at your chosen min, and increase the powder charge 1 grain at a time, until you do NOT get a normal increase in velocity. Then back off to the last load, and you have a good safe max for your rifle. Every one is different.
The old pressure signs enumerated in another post are signs of really high pressures, if you see one of them, back off at least 5% on the charge weight.

[Steve P]

You have to do your research, start low, and work up for each gun.  I learned a lesson years ago.  I have a Colt Trooper Mark III.  My pet load came from a police officer who shot in national competition with his Colt.  I can shoot six rounds and extract the six brass with simple touch of the extractor.

I thought this was such a great load in the Colt, and the Ruger is strong, I would try it in it also.  I had to take out the cylinder and use a wooden dowel to tap out the brass.  It was stuck in the Cylinder.  Load was way too hot for the Ruger.  

So, a load of your brothers, may not work in your gun.  The Neighbors pet load may also not work.    But it is a good starting point.  Drop about 10% and work up.

Have fun, but stay safe.

Steve