Best WWII sniper rifle?

[Arick the Red]

I'm fascinated with sniper rifles and the snipers of WWII.  What rifle do you think made the best sniper rifle?  And for WWII history buffs, who was the most skilled sniper in your opinion.

[1911crazy]

First the Finn's and Russian's had some famous snipers in WW2.  I believe the most famous sniper in the US history was Carlos Hathcock He was the one who the movies copied that famous shot where he put a bullet thru the scope of another sniper.  I believe Hathcock made that shot in nam.

I'm not sure which sniper rifle is the best.  But the M41B 6,5mm Swede is sure one of the top ones.

[ajj]

The Springfield.

[S.S.]

The Brits had a modified Enfield that by all accounts was the
top of the pile. If I remember correctly it was referred to as a T3.
Most of the other "Sniper" rifles were field expedient creations
to fill a need. The Brits actually created this rifle to be used by snipers.

[Mikey]

S. Sumner - I think you are correct.  The Mauser snipers were just accurate rifles that the Germans scoped for sniper work, and I think the Russian rifles were the same.  I too believe the T3 was specifically designed for sniper work and I have seen only two originals, but with better glass, outshoot some verrry expensive modern 'snipers'.  Mikey.

[1911crazy]

I believe the Russians just didn't scope any mosin all the sniper mosins were tula's anything else is a fake. These were built for sniping and had the triggers done, bores and chambers polished.

I'm not sure about the famous Finnish Sniper I forget his name but he was suppose to be one of the best in the world also. His name is Simo Hayha. He used no scope just iron sites.  He made 500 kills in 100 days before he was shot in the face with an exploding bullet. Who knows how many he would of killed if he lasted longer.  The article does mention the "rifles of the white death"  battle where 4,000 russians went up against 32 finn's armed with 91/30's, M27's, M28's and the russians retreated with 3,600 left alive and there was 4 or 5 finn's left.  The finn's were noted or making 600 meter shots with their iron sited mosins. The finn's were marksman and lets face it "one shot one kill" can be imtidating.  When Hitler heard of this war between Russia and Finland were the Finn's held the Russians off he figured that Russia would be a push over.  While the Russians did catch hell from the Germans for quite sometime they did regroup and turn things around with our help of course.  Behind the scene's we were supplying the world with arms, armor and machines on all fronts. This was back when we were the manufacturing might of the world.

go to; www.mosinnagant.net/finland/simohayha.asp

Somewhere there is a list of snipers with all their kills.

[Lawdog]

I my opinion the most accurate WWII Sniper rifle was the Springfield
M1903-A1/Unertl(8x).  Story on it follows;

Unlike the US Army, the USMC had a standard issue sniper rifle at the start of hostilities in WWII, it was a M1903/Lyman 5A (5x), which was adopted (with the Winchester A5 Telescope) during WWI. After there was a push to standardize sniper equipment, the Marine Corps Equipment Board did an extensive study of optics under field conditions and recommended a scope of about 8x, with an objective lens of about one and half inches, a medium fine cross hair reticle, and double micrometer quarter minute click mounts. They specifically cited a 8x target scope made by John Unertl as being the best they found. They also recommended the scope be mounted on a Winchester M70 target rifle, but the USMC decided on the M1903 based on favorable accuracy comparisons between specially selected M1903's and the M70. So the
M1903-A1 mounted with the Unertl 8x became the "sniping standard" in the USMC.

The M1903-A1/Unertl was tested and at 600 yards and with M72 Match ammo would group 3.5 inches (.58 MOA) but match ammo was about impossible to come by during the war, so most snipers had to settle with M2 Ball ammo, which was still respectable with groups coming in at 7.5" at 600 yards (1.25 MOA). The M1903-A1/Unertl was used by the USMC through out WWII, along with the M1903-A4. Like the M1903-A4 the M1903-A1/Unertl was a lethal system in the hands of a properly trained sniper during WWII and Korea.

Most likely the two most famous WWII snipers were;

Maj. Koenig, Germany. - Kills 1610
Sgt. Vasili Zaitsev, Russia -. Kills 1090

They made a movie about these two and the duel they had in which Zaitsev killed Koenig.  Lawdog
 

[kevin.303]

the Longbranch No.4 Mk 1(T), and i've heard that some Canadian Snipers where issued rebuilt M1910 Ross sniper rigs at the outbreak of the war

[1911crazy]

Lets not forget that sniping was invented in America back during our revolutionary war.  The English were upset over it too. There's a good story about it on the history channel. They seem to have a day of sniper history and they cover most of it.  They cover Russian snipers and russian woman snipers too.  And our modern military snipers today.

[1911crazy]

Go to;  www.snipercentral.com/snipers.htm

And;  www.bobtuley.com/CarlosHathcock.htm  use the pull down menu and checkout this site too you might want to read the "Patton" section too old George kicked @ss in the states too. There's lots of interesting reading.

[IntrepidWizard]

03,compare 30-06 ballistics with all other rounds of WWII and it comes out on top and in a 03 action with or without scope is was the best.

[1911crazy]

The German 8mm mauser round when loaded properly surpasses the '06 in performance.  Were not talking the wimpy loaded down amercian 8mm ammo were talking real correct loaded european 8mm.  All of the calibers are so close in performance one well placed shot would sit anyone down.(303 britt,  30-06, 7,62x54, 308, 8mm, 6,5 swede, 7mm mauser ect. anyone would work if we the shooter does our part)

[Badnews Bob]

8MM dosn;t surpass the 06 I've tried, my best handloads are close but they don't  outdo the 06

[IntrepidWizard]

Bill ,check the Military ballistics of the rounds you mentioned used in WWII and the energy.

[1911crazy]

The 154gr German/Turk 8mm round specs go to;

www.Turkmauser.com/ammo.htm  

www.Turkmauser.com/ammo/mhbTurk.htm

The other specs like the yugo/romanian 8mm are pushing 200grs.

For the '06 M2 round go to;

www.closefocusresearch.com/html/ballistic_standards_summary.html

[S.S.]

The 8mm Mauser with the 196-198 grain ball ammo.
(323 bore) did indeed surpass the 30-06 in power.
The reasons we cannot get it there normally in our
reloads is that the powder that boosted it above the
30-06 is no longer produced and has not been since
the late 1940's... and it never was produced in America.
CRS prevents me from remembering the German numeric
code for it. All of it I have ever seen was tiny little silver pellets
that were square in shape.  I had a couple of pounds of it
many years ago and if I remember correctly it had a very slow
burn rate.

[cal sibley]

I don't know it's the best sniper rifle but I'd throw my vote toward the Swedish 96 Mauser in 6.5x55.  They weren't made as sniper rifles as such, but periodically Swedish rifles were recalled to the arsenal, and the most accurate ones had the bolts turned down and side mount scopes mounted.  I have one, and it's very accurate.  Just one man's opinion.  Best wishes.

Cal - Montreal

[Jack Crevalle]

I don't know how the British could have been upset about American "snipers" in the revolutionary war since the British had ther own group of special markman outfitted with breech loading rifles. The officer who lead this unit actually passed up a shot at George Washington because, he said,  at the time, he could not believe that someone dressed so poorly could have been the commanding General.

[kevin.303]

Jack, i do believe you referring to the Fergueson rifle. an ingenious design that had a breech block that was lowered by means of rotating a lever attached to the trigger guard, could be loaded at least two or 3 times in the time it took to load a brown bess

[brimic]

These were probably never used at all in WWII, but I'm a bit biased toward the M41b. This one's a 1899 Mauser/Oberndorf with a 1942 Ajack scope on it.

[josquin]

I don't know how the British could have been upset about American "snipers" in the revolutionary war since the British had ther own group of special markman outfitted with breech loading rifles. The officer who lead this unit actually passed up a shot at George Washington because, he said,  at the time, he could not believe that someone dressed so poorly could have been the commanding General.

This was indeed the Ferguson breech-loader, with an interrupted-screw dropping "block." However, as impressive as his demonstrations were to the British military brass, I believe he ended up outfitting his men privately when the military refused to do so. He was killed by an American sharp shooter at the battle of King's Mountain. One of the biggest mysteries is where the Ferguson rifles went as apparently there are only two in existence today.

 :-) Stuart

[1911crazy]

Your talking about the rifle that took the "HEX" shaped bullet right?  I believe they showed all these rifles on the history channel on a sniper show.  They have a day were they run all the sniper shows and its interesting from the revolutionary war, to the civil war to WW2 up to the modern day snipers.

[kombi1976]

Well, I'm going to be patriotic and say the Lithgow-manufactured SMLE No1 MkIII*HT.
This rifle originated in the heavy barrelled range rifles issued to the various rifle clubs and citizens military forces(like Army Reserve) after WW1 when all men were encouraged to learn how to use a rifle.
That's where the "H" comes from in the name.
At the onset of WW2 the range rifles were re-appropriated and after the discovery that they could be made extremely accurate they were fitted with receiver mounts, QR rings and an Aussie-made 2x Field Instruments scope.
Some of these rifles continued to be used until the 70s and 80s for various uses.
I'll get a pic to post.

[Idaho_Hick]

Well, I have heard many make a case for the No.4 Mk 1(T),  based upon the fact that it was designed to be a sniper rifle.  But based upon my experience shooting an '03, and accuracy reports I have read in many places, I would rank a 03 A4 at the top.  No, it doesn't have a cheekpiece, and often the scopes were mounted poorly and were not the best optics available, but this rifle has the capability to shoot very well.  And for me, if I was pressed into service as a sniper, I would want the best shooting rifle around, and I would make do with poor fit.
 
To each his own. [/u]

[S.S.]

My T3 gives up nothing to the Springfield in accuracy.
The Springfield of course is the more powerful of the two
but The Brit has double the capacity. Each has its good and
bad points in my opinon but I sure would not be poking my head
up out of the trenches if I were facing either one of them, Thats
for sure! I have to add one more thing though that I "DARN"
well hate to admit. The British snipers were more highly trained
in the use of their weapons and the tactics they used in the field.
(Of Course This Is No Longer The Case  ;>)

[kombi1976]

When Hitler heard of this war between Russia and Finland were the Finn's held the Russians off he figured that Russia would be a push over.  While the Russians did catch hell from the Germans for quite sometime they did regroup and turn things around with our help of course.  Behind the scene's we were supplying the world with arms, armor and machines on all fronts. This was back when we were the manufacturing might of the world.

While the Russians were decent soldiers in their own way they used 2 major tactical tools they've always possessed:

a) weight of numbers

and more importantly

b) climate

The Germans in WW2 did not consider the Russian winter, much as Napoleon did not in his famous defeat.
Combine that with the sheer amount of cannon fodder the general Russian population provided and the fact that human rights were a concept foreign to Russian rulers from time immemorial and you have waves of soldiers(albeit not necessarily armed soldiers) to wade through before your reach your objective.
I have tremendous respect for people like Vassily Zaitsev but the reality is that the Russians fight wars on their own turf far differently to almost every other nation on earth.
The reason the Finns were probably so successful was a combination of the marksmanship and the fact they were accustomed to fighting in the same climate as the Russians.

[S.S.]

I had the privledge of hearing an old Russian soldier talk about
his experiences in Stalingrad a long time ago. I wish I would
have taped the entire speech. But he spoke of being unarmed
when he got there so he sharpened the edges of a trench shovel
and that was what he was armed with for many days after he arrived.
The stair wells of the taller buildings were a main objective
to capture to control the buildings and he said that shovel was far more
useful in those close quarters than an unwieldy rifle. He described
some of the encounters and it really must have been a horrible
thing to see. When asked how many Nazi's he had killed his reply
was that it was dark most of the time when he went out so he really
did not know. I chopped many of them though...

[Idaho_Hick]

S. Summer - you are fortunate to own an original T3.  Could you share with us your ammo and groups from that rifle.  I am always very interested to hear real, personal experience.

[S.S.]

I was indeed fortunate to get that rifle, A friend of mine
ran into some problems with Uncle Sam due to a disagreement
over how much income Tax they each thought was fair !
He lost the arguement and was forced to come up with some
money "Really Fast"... He owned a Hardware store back when
Surplus rifles started coming into the country and there was a lot
more to choose from. (11 mm Mausers, 6.5 Krags from Norway,
Rolling Blocks from South America, 88 Commission rifles from
Germany, 8 mm Guedes just to name a few he had.)..
As far as accuracy, It will fire clover leaf groups at 100 meters
but so will my No. 4 MkI * , It too wears a scope but a much more
modern one. They Both have unusual rifling though, The No. 4
only has 2 grooves ? and the T3 has something similar to the
octagonal rifling in a Glock pistol.. I have read that Holland
& Holland created and fitted these barrels on the T3's for
the British War Department... I have found that American
ammo does not group nearly as well as the Surplus Ball
out of these two rifles. Groups open up to a couple of inches
with it. They were designed for the old Cordite rounds and
shoot them qute well so that is what I feed them. My S.M.L.E.
on the other does not care, It will group at about 1 1/2  inch with
anything I fire through it and it has a really dark bore to boot..
The British made some ugly rifles, But they don't need to be pretty
to put a bullet on target. I also have a P-14 Enfield and a Jungle
carbine... The P-14 is truely a thing of beauty.. Nice lines,
Great sights, Very good accuracy.. But I would have hated to have carried
one in combat! It is way to heavy and has terrible balance for a
military rifle..I could not imagine bayonet drill with that thing !
But it is Pretty! The Jungle carbine, well...
I don't even waste bullets in it anymore.. I can't even keep half
the rounds in a magazine full on a 12 inch paper plate at 100 meters.