Reloading Die Alignment Problem?

[Ex-Cajun]

Is it possible to have a reloading set-up where the dies don't align with the case?  I have a batch of 30-30 cases I'm making into 7-30 waters and during the necking process, it looks like it's doing it off center.  I have an old red & black Lyman turret press that is probably 45 years old.  Is it the press?

[jcunclejoe]

First check to see if the neck is really out of center by rolling the case in a set of "V" blocks. If it is out of center it may be the dies, the press or the brass.  

To check for press alignment, try the die in another press and see if it is still pulling the necks off center.

It could also be caused by the brass being thicker on one side, you might measure the neck thickness on several cases to see if it is uniform.

To see if it is the die, you can put a witness mark on a case head and run it through the die. If there is a high side it should be in some relation to the witness mark, then you can back the die off 1/4 turn, lock it down, resize a case and check the high side to witness relation. If the relation changed 90 degrees then the die is bad.

I hope this helps some.
Joe

[Lone Star]

There are several reasons for this problem.

* Press is not drilled centered above the ram.
* Shell holder is machined incorrectly or the cutout in the ram is dirty/wrong.
* The breech face is not perpendicular to the bore axis.  If these are used cases then IME you can expect to have trouble.

Rim thickness is usually not the issue since it is the bottom of the case head which is ironed flat against the breech block, and which then rides on the bottom of the shellholder.

[jw4570]

You stated you are using a Lyman Turret Press.  The turret could be flexing causing this.  New Lyman Turrets (T-Mag II) has a pin the supports the back side of the turret to prevent flexing.  

I concur, try the dies in a different press.  Also, what are you using for lube?  I prefer Imperial sizing wax for case forming operations.

Jason

[Steve P]

The 7x30 chamber is just .002" narrower than the 30-30.  The brass should be self centering as it goes into your die.  So as it sizes the brass, all should be lined up centered, unless one of the problems mentioned above about center line of die, press, etc being off.  

Another thing you can check is your expander button and decapping pin.  Is it centered in your die?  Due to tolerance differences and the length of the decapping rod, as you screw them in, a lot of times you will see a wobble and they can stop off center.

 Check to make sure that decapping pin appears to be centered in your die.  If not, as you bring the brass down out of the die, the expander ball could be pushing the neck off center.  When the neck is at expander ball level, there is about .057" space between the die and the neck/shoulder.  If you have a tight shell holder, and the decapping pin is off center, it is going to pull out crooked, which could make your neck look off center.

Do you have any fired 7-30 brass?  Do they size ok?

Good Luck,

Steve

[Ex-Cajun]

Thanks to everyone for your input thusfar.
I have some additional info that my help clarify my problem.
Please bear in mind that although i have reloaded ammo for years, I may not know the "official" names of the parts of the dies.
I have a two die set of Redding dies that I got from Fred Smith.  I start out with a fresh, clean, new 30-30 brass from the bag.  I run it through the die with the bullet seater, not the expander die.  This necks it down to the 7mm size (or actually a bit smaller) and it's where I'm having the mis-alignment problem.  I can turn the brass 1/4 turn or so and creep it down a bit more with every turn and that seems to keep the "bulge" centered.  If I don't rotate it, it will leave it un-centered.  I have tried aligning the shell holder towards where the bulge is and not pushing the case all the way to the back of the holder (held off about 1mm or so) and then the case has some lateral movement so that is can "self-center" and it does fine.  It's just a bit inconvenient, I'm right handed and work the press with my right hand.  With the case holder aligned this way, the entry is on the right side!
Steve P, you are right about the expander not being centered and as you turn it, it will "wobble" onto center.  I saw this in the set when I first got them, emailed Redding and they mailed me another one without question.
Long story short-  With the holder aligned where the case can move left to right allows the case to self center.  If I align the holder opening to face me, it pulls it off center.  
The head of the press is extremely stout; about 1 1/4 inch of solid cast iron.  It's not flexing a bit (although my bench is...but it's only 1/2 inch press board)
The turret seems to "click" into position on every hole.  I've tried moving the dies to a different hole, but no luck.

Travis

[jw4570]

I think the seater die is your problem

For forming Brass, you run it through the sizer/expander die, just like sizing any normal case.  

The seater die isn't really made to form brass, only seat/crimp the bullet.

Jason

[Zeke Menuar]

Sounds like the problem is solved.

FWIW

 I free-floated the shellholder in my press.  I removed the metal clippy-thing that holds the shell-holder in place.  I use a rubber O-ring to hold the shell holder instead.  

Eliminates one problem that can cause misalignment.  

ZM

[Steve P]

I start out with a fresh, clean, new 30-30 brass from the bag.  I run it through the die with the bullet seater, not the expander die.  This necks it down to the 7mm size (or actually a bit smaller) and it's where I'm having the mis-alignment problem.  

Travis, You have to use your sizing die to make your brass.  The sizing die is made to specific tolerances.    These tolerances are NOT duplicated in belling dies, seating dies, crimping dies, etc because these other dies have different application.

If you were using the seating die to try neck down the brass, you were using a die that is bigger in the neck and shoulder area.  This die has excess room to allow the brass and bullet to self align as the bullet starts to seat into the case.  Once the bullets starts to seat the brass is pulled center and it seats properly.  This excess space keeps the brass and bullet from binding or the brass from splitting if the bullet is off center a little as it enters the die.  If you don't have the bullet to center the brass, and don't have the tighter tolerance of the sizing die, then your brass has room to move and so it goes off center when trying to size down.

Good Luck,

Steve  

[Ex-Cajun]

Thanks Steve P
I guess I need to tell you that I run it through the seating die first.  I have it adjusted about 1/16 from touching the case holder as not to make a "crimp" at the top edge of the brass.  After that, I run it through the sizing die and it seems to tighten up the neck a bit more than the seating die.  I tried running the 30 cal neck (from the 30-30 brass) right into the sizing die first and it just crumples the neck and shoulder, mostly the neck.  I figure as long as I can get an end result I really don't care how it's done.  The only thing I'm concerned with is the initial alignment problem.
I'll probably finish up this bag of 50 and before I get into the next 2 bags I'll take a look at the turret locking mechanism.  There's gotta be something slipped or not assembled right.  My dad sent this thing to me in pieces and I re-assembled it from pics on the web.  I used to use it 20 years ago ALOT but might have missed something.  Not sure.  If I can't figure it out I'll just keep it this way and enter the cases from the other side.
I'm really not one to make a big deal out of things and this post is getting out of hand for me. Hehehe  I guess I needn't be so lazy LOL

Thanks guys,

Travis

[jw4570]

You should be able to reform the brass by running it straight into the sizing die.  It shouldn't crinkle.  Make sure it's lubed good with a good lube.

What lube are you using?  I tried some of a friends Hornady One-shot and it's junk in my opinion.  Cases stuck, the press was jittery.  I'd try some Dillon or Midway lube, but I still insist for case forming, that Imperial Sizing Wax (I think Redding has bought it) is the best.

You should also try forming the brass in one quick fluid motion with the press.  I have found going real slow, etc can cause it to jam.

[Ex-Cajun]

I tried a mix of my own - beexwax and wd-40 heated and stirred.  Also some of the spray on type.  Not sure what the brand is, the label fell of.  In these particular dies since they are the 7-30 waters improved from Bullberry's, the taper on the 40* shoulder is too harsh to make it.  I'm ok with going through both dies per brass.  I'll really only have to do it this one time.  I did some tonight and sat on the right side of the press and worked it with my left hand and loaded cases with my right and finished another bag of 50.  its DAMN cold in my garage right now and I came in to thaw out!
Just got one more bag to go then start loading up more to fireform.
By the way, I tried the "birdseed" method using 6 gr of red-dot and some birdseed with a papertowel plug in the end.  Didn't do much shaping.  I got real good crisp edges using some old 7mm NORMA bullets my dad got from a military surplus.  They're cool, got the brass tip on it, I'm guessing pre-ballistic delrin tip.  When I got them they were so oxidized that they just looked 2-tone brown.  I threw them in my jewelry tumbler with steel shot and soap and they look like jewelry!  Nice copper and gold color.

I just love this reloading thing!

Travis

[jw4570]

I can see how the improved chamber in the die would cause case crushing.  I missed that part earlier it was an "improved" chamber.

You'd be fine getting a 7-30 Waters standard Die I would think.

Usually the seating dies are polished that well, so I'm glad it's working well for you.

For a limited amount, you are probably ok.  If I was going to do a lot, start looking a gunshows, etc for a set of used dies, they can be had very cheap there many times, even odd & expensive calibers.

I used a bunch of old Sierras to work up loads for my 7mm TCU.  Same thing, slightly corroded, but mine weren't too bad to polish.