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Offline FWiedner

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The Devaluation of Freedom
« on: November 15, 2005, 04:53:10 AM »
The Devaluation of Freedom

By Lady Liberty

I love Washington, DC. Oh, I absolutely don't love what goes on there, but the history and the symbolism are wonderful. I've visited Washington a number of times now, the most recent being just a week ago. There are some things I see over and over again (the Charters of Freedom — the collective name given by the National Archives to the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, and the Bill of Rights — for example, and the Space Shuttle Enterprise), but every time I go, I see new things as well. This trip was no exception.

One thing that was different this trip was the fact that I had a friend of mine along. She and I tend to agree on many political issues and are, in fact, both fairly active in politics. I figured we'd find much to talk about and to inspire us in Washington. I was right, but what we talked about took me by surprise.

One of our excursions took us to Arlington National Cemetery. I am well aware and deeply appreciative of the many sacrifices remembered there. I've been to Arlington before, but there were a few new things there for me to look at. One of those was the memorial to the Space Shuttle Columbia astronauts. The other was a limited time exhibit in the Women in Military Museum entitled "The Wall of the Fallen."

The Wall is made up of small portraits by a variety of artists. Each artist was given access to photographs of soldiers who died in Afghanistan or Iraq up through November of last year. The resulting artwork is now mounted with plates bearing the soldier's name and dates of birth and death. The smiles on some faces are poignant; the pride shining through on so many is humbling. Most moving of all, though, are the coins, notes, flowers, and other tributes left near so many photos.

With tears in my eyes, I read notes from children or parents to their lost fathers or children. As I stood in front of one portrait, a young man, his wife, and their small child walked up beside me. He quietly placed a coin at the base of one painting and stepped back. The child piped up, "Did you know him, Daddy?" The man answered that yes, he'd known that soldier as well as several others pictured on The Wall.

The man's wife said nothing, but she followed closely as her husband laid more coins beside more portraits. As he did, he clearly grieved. But it was just as obvious that he took great pride in himself and in his brothers in arms. I personally left a thank you note with those on The Wall. Although I'm not proud of the reasoning behind the war in Iraq, I remain grateful for those who go such places and who brave such dangers in the name of freedom.

My friend, who'd wandered far ahead of me along The Wall, walked back to where I was standing. She, too, had tears in her eyes. But as it turns out, hers were tears of anger, and she whispered through clenched teeth, "I'd send my sons to Canada before I'd let them join the Army!" I didn't respond; after all, there are good reasons to oppose at least the war in Iraq, and so it's fair to say that there might be good reasons to refuse participation when refusal is an option.

Later the same day, I had the opportunity to visit the Viet Nam War Memorial for the first time. That memorial is merely a V-shaped construct of polished black stone engraved with the names, in order of death, of all of the American soldiers who died southeast Asia. I don't know anyone who fought there; I don't know anyone affected by someone who died there. And yet, standing there, I wept (if you've not seen it, you can't appreciate just what an impact it has even for those of us who have no connection to the war itself).

My friend, again in tears, leaned close to me and said, "We never learn! Why do we have to fight about everything?" Well, there are reasons, and some good ones. But Viet Nam isn't very often used as an example of "good reason to fight," so I made no reply.

After having kept quiet at two memorials fearing I had no solid ground to stand on for debate, I was actually shocked into silence at a third.

The World War II Memorial is rife with symbolism. One of the most moving of those symbols is a low wall covered with gold stars. Each star represents, I'm told, about 100 dead soldiers. There are a lot of stars. On a large, low strip of granite seated in front of the wall of stars is engraved: "Here We Mark the Price of Freedom."

It's not possible to stand in front of the rippling fountains and look at the thousands of gold stars and not feel grateful. I don't believe any American could read the inscriptions featured at the Memorial and remain unmoved. Certainly, my friend seemed as emotional as I was. And then she spoke: "War is stupid. Why can't we ever just compromise?"

Although I recognize our losses were grievous in that particular conflict, I have to wonder just how it is any of those men would look at us today if any of us might suggest that we should have compromised with Adolph Hitler. Might they wonder in return just what happened to the kind of America they died to defend?

The next day, there was a strangely similar exhibit at another venue we visited. It's called "The Price of Freedom: Americans at War," and it's housed in the Smithsonian's National Museum of American History. It features artifacts and information from every conflict the United States has been involved in, from the Revolutionary War to the ongoing battle in the Middle East. I was especially touched by objects from both ends of the timeline.

A British uniform, in perfect condition, made the war seem bizarrely close and real. Near the end of the exhibit, a strange steel sculpture caught my eye (I'm no fan of modern art, but the Smithsonian displays a good deal of sculpture in that vein, so you'll forgive me initial impressions). Upon moving closer, I learned that the twisted and holed beams were actually taken from the World Trade Center's south tower after 9/11.

In front of the beams are small glass cases containing the mangled fragments of an Airfone from Flight 93 and the Pentagon ID badges of a military man who perished there on that same date. Whatever your view on the extension of the War on Terror into Iraq, make no mistake: the beams, the phone, and the badges are, indeed, artifacts of war and symbolic of heroes, dead and alive, in the conflict.

My friend didn't say anything. Why not? She chose not to see that particular exhibit. She was not, she said, interested in seeing anything to do with war. I went without her, to pay my respects if nothing else. And as I began my tour with that British uniform, and while I looked at antique firearms and touched cannon barrels, I came to realize something of great importance to us all: the American Revolution, or more properly, the War for Independence, wouldn't be fought today.

Although there will always be a few patriotic volunteers who will fight, there are more and more people who express themselves as my friend did, and who won't go — or allow their children to go — into harm's way, no matter the cause. There are more and more people who believe in working toward some kind of utopia where wars are simply not necessary, forgetting that human nature alone will preclude that goal. The same people who don't believe that deadly force is ever necessary in self defense are becoming more and more vocal in their beliefs that the deadly force known as war isn't necessary either, if only we try to understand the "enemy" or if we'd just stop whatever it is we're doing to make him mad.

The first step toward this end is, of course, compromise (and it doesn't matter that such compromise can and will involve ignoring appalling human rights violations); other integral actions involve such entities as the United Nations (forgetting, of course, that the UN is singularly ineffective in its stated mission even as it is rotting from the inside out with scandal, and that it represents perhaps the gravest threat to our national sovereignty in the world today). Note that none of these steps involve freedom and its inherent risk; none of them involve sacrifice if that sacrifice is deemed too great. And nowhere is it mentioned that, in the end, the final result will prove to be a loss of freedom for all.

With that in the back of my mind, I finally spoke up in a moment of pique and quoted a (censored word) proverb (it's not original to Star Trek, but I'm damned if I know the original source) and told my friend that, "I'd rather die on my feet than live on my knees." She looked at me as if I'd lost my mind. Melodramatic I may be, but I've lost neither my mind nor my love for real freedom. It's readily apparent, however, that too many people in America today have lost at least the latter, replacing it with a desire for security or a fear of responsibility.

I don't like war. It's dirty, nasty, ugly business. There are times, however, it's a necessity. I like even less the undermining of liberty in the name of war. Winning freedom and preserving freedom are worth the price, whether the cost merely involves activism or is far, far greater. Maybe if we can't believe that, or if we've forgotten just how much it cost those who won our freedom in the first place, we should ask some who aren't free what they'd give to get what we've already got — and what they'd think of those of us who, without complaint and sometimes with complicity, are so readily willing to give it away.

http://www.federalobserver.com/archive.php?aid=10257

*FW Note:

There are a lot of things worth fighting for, but IMO modern Americans have a real problem with being able to tell the difference between fighting for their own freedom, and that of their loved ones, and being duped into fighting to protect their master's plantation, and then settling for what he permits them to believe is freedom.

 :(
They may talk of a "New Order" in the  world, but what they have in mind is only a revival of the oldest and worst tyranny.   No liberty, no religion, no hope.   It is an unholy alliance of power and pelf to dominate and to enslave the human race.

Offline swiftman

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The Devaluation of Freedom
« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2005, 03:20:20 PM »
Maybe we should just wait till we have to fight them over here. Is that what you want?   Alot of people joined the military to just get a education, not what they are there for, they carry guns this should be a clue.
 We lost 200 men killed for every day that WW2 lasted . We would never be able to win that again.  There are far to many people in this country willing to give up every thing those men and women fought for to ever make that kind of sacrifice again.  
There are a lot of people that think we have lost alot of freedoms under this administration, just wait till the Dems get back in power and they will make G.W. look like an amituer if we get hit agian went they are in control. If someone flys a plane into a building somewhere they will be trying to blame it on the guy down the street will a gun and outlaw all they can get.

God will sort this all out because he is the only one with the answers.
In the end times there will be wars and rumors of wars, And earth quakes and casrtrophes all over the world.

Offline Shorty

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The Devaluation of Freedom
« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2005, 03:25:36 PM »
FW,
Do you not admit that sometimes one must fight to "protect the masters plantation" because, if he falls, you're screwed?

Offline FWiedner

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« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2005, 07:08:40 PM »
Quote from: swiftman
Maybe we should just wait till we have to fight them over here. Is that what you want? Alot of people joined the military to just get a education, not what they are there for, they carry guns this should be a clue.
We lost 200 men killed for every day that WW2 lasted . We would never be able to win that again. There are far to many people in this country willing to give up every thing those men and women fought for to ever make that kind of sacrifice again.
There are a lot of people that think we have lost alot of freedoms under this administration, just wait till the Dems get back in power and they will make G.W. look like an amituer if we get hit agian went they are in control. If someone flys a plane into a building somewhere they will be trying to blame it on the guy down the street will a gun and outlaw all they can get.

God will sort this all out because he is the only one with the answers.
In the end times there will be wars and rumors of wars, And earth quakes and casrtrophes all over the world.


The only idea I can agree with is your last two lines.

Sorry, I'm not buying into the fear.  We wouldn't even be at war except for our government's f'ed up policies that stick it's nose into other people's business, and their domestic policies that keep The People afraid to walk out their front doors for fear that the sky might fall.

Quote from: Shorty
FW,
Do you not admit that sometimes one must fight to "protect the masters plantation" because, if he falls, you're screwed?


Nope.  That cast of characters changes every several years and the place doesn't seem to fall apart.  Just as sure as there's something worse out there, there's a likelyhood that there's also something better.

The state has instilled an overriding sense of dependency into the American People, to the point that most people feel that there's no way that society could possibly survive if big brother didn't tell them what they should be concerned about.

If your dinner comes from the masters scraps, it's only natural that you'd step up to protect his table.  But if he can keep you busy doing his dirty-work while he and his children grow fat watching you, what benefit is there to him for you to have any knowledge that you might be able to feed yourself?  Figuratively speaking.

This has become a nation of people who are ignorant of and fear their own freedom, and who are terrified by the potential freedoms of others.

 :shock:
They may talk of a "New Order" in the  world, but what they have in mind is only a revival of the oldest and worst tyranny.   No liberty, no religion, no hope.   It is an unholy alliance of power and pelf to dominate and to enslave the human race.

Offline sharp shooter

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« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2005, 12:07:02 PM »
My wife has taught school for over tirty years and it is sad to see loss of the understanding by the younger generation of the blood sweat and tears that it took to make this country.
They do not care about the history of the USA or the lives lost to keep it free. They only seem to care about themselves and little thought about their future.
The hundreds of thousands of lives it has taken to keep us free should not ever be taken for granted and we should be gratful to those who put their lives on the line everyday for us wether in the armed forces or fire.EMS or law inforcement.
It seems that the younger generation thinks the world will be handed to them and no concept of what is waiting for them once they graduate from school.
I know this is not true for all young but it seems that way for more and more of them.
I was born on a farm and hard work was just a given and getting the job done and done right was what we were taught and it still is my way today.

Offline swiftman

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« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2005, 03:34:50 PM »
When should we fight? They never show the people that are thankfull we
helped them but the left TV will never do that till a Dem is in the whitehouse.
When the Dem get in control we won't need our guns because they will protect us from ourselfs and there won't be anymore hunting because an animal might get hurt.
 I watch a news show the other night where a member of one of the animals rights groups is calling for killing of people instead of just arsion and bombsto destroy buildings and suv's. He is a doctor in CAL. so they won't touch him.

I guess we should box up our guns so when the UN passes their ban on all priavatly owned small arms and the Dem controlled congress ratifies it we can turn them in so we won't be  lawless felions.  
If there is ever a battle of any kind ever fought on the soil of the USA I believe this country is doomed as a free nation. It is anyway but that
would just speed it up.

There are some that think we can make it like when it was a new nation, but that will never happen. We will just be adsorbed in to the one world gov.  because  the US won't control her destiny because the rest of the world will control the purse strings of this country by then. Not much is made in this country anymore so if the youngsters of this nation cna't sell
Cubin grown fries with the Canadian hamburgers they won't be able to work unless they can sell some other non US made procuct.  
The path has  started and  there is no going back now for it is to late.
If anyone in power in this country even suggested it,they would be made a fool of by the 200,000,000 US citizens that would not believe them.

This county has turned is back on God and the Godless are taking God's law and throwing it out the window so they can live their life style with out him.

It won't be long now before you get your computer chip or mark of the
beast in your hand or forehead so you can buy or sell and not be an outlaw. Will you be first in line to get yours?



The end of this world has already been written. I am just waiting to start the next with my lord and brothers in Christ.

Offline FWiedner

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The Devaluation of Freedom
« Reply #6 on: November 18, 2005, 08:33:13 AM »
Quote from: swiftman
When should we fight? They never show the people that are thankfull we
helped them but the left TV will never do that till a Dem is in the whitehouse.
When the Dem get in control we won't need our guns because they will protect us from ourselfs and there won't be anymore hunting because an animal might get hurt.
 I watch a news show the other night where a member of one of the animals rights groups is calling for killing of people instead of just arsion and bombsto destroy buildings and suv's. He is a doctor in CAL. so they won't touch him.

I guess we should box up our guns so when the UN passes their ban on all priavatly owned small arms and the Dem controlled congress ratifies it we can turn them in so we won't be  lawless felions.  
If there is ever a battle of any kind ever fought on the soil of the USA I believe this country is doomed as a free nation. It is anyway but that
would just speed it up.

There are some that think we can make it like when it was a new nation, but that will never happen. We will just be adsorbed in to the one world gov.  because  the US won't control her destiny because the rest of the world will control the purse strings of this country by then. Not much is made in this country anymore so if the youngsters of this nation cna't sell
Cubin grown fries with the Canadian hamburgers they won't be able to work unless they can sell some other non US made procuct.  
The path has  started and  there is no going back now for it is to late.
If anyone in power in this country even suggested it,they would be made a fool of by the 200,000,000 US citizens that would not believe them.

This county has turned is back on God and the Godless are taking God's law and throwing it out the window so they can live their life style with out him.

It won't be long now before you get your computer chip or mark of the
beast in your hand or forehead so you can buy or sell and not be an outlaw. Will you be first in line to get yours?



The end of this world has already been written. I am just waiting to start the next with my lord and brothers in Christ.


I've got news for you.  This is not a free nation, and the Dems aren't the biggest rats in the sewer.

Was it a Dem controlled Congress or White House that passed McCain-Feingold?  Was it a Dem controlled Congress or White House that passed  The Patriot Act?  Was it a Dem controlled Congress or White House that authorized and created the Department of Homeland Surveillance?  Was it during a Dem administration that the Supreme Court decided that it is OK for local governments to steal privately-owned property to give to other private interests for financial gain?  Was it during a Dem administration that the Supreme Court decided that American citizens minding their own business have to produce their "papers" upon demand of law enforcement?  

When should we fight?  When we need to, of course, and not just every time the political masters say "jump".

But it might serve well if we actually spent some time identifying the enemy.

 :?
They may talk of a "New Order" in the  world, but what they have in mind is only a revival of the oldest and worst tyranny.   No liberty, no religion, no hope.   It is an unholy alliance of power and pelf to dominate and to enslave the human race.

Offline swiftman

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« Reply #7 on: November 18, 2005, 06:24:23 PM »
Well it it is the best there is as far as freedom is cocerned ,but I guess if you want to blame it on everything but the real resaon go ahead , but once they threw GOD out of the equation the end begain. Its is just amatter of how long it takes. No one is going to thow the ilegeals out because it would be political suicide for witch ever side tried it , because the other side would use it against them.  

When the dem get into power they will make the rep look like amitures when it come to taling your rights away.  

How can someone want to see the top dem leaders be incontrol at least the ones who are in real power in this country right now. I live in a state that has a dem gov and he has already tried to get our guns 2 or 3 times he is control by the grear state of chicago and mayor Daily who wants the whole state disarmd like his city is alredy is.
Our gov has vetoed every progun legslation that has been put on his desk.

Our gov is stipping all the pension funds of state workers to pay for his upstate cronies projects.

If you want Hillary and teddy and the rest to control your destiny by all means get them real control.  They will be in afew years anyway.

IF a unborn baby has no rights in their eyes what rights do you think thay are going to save for us.  

There is no way  anyone that could save this country will ever be elected now.

 I know that and so should you. There are to many people that want to live their godless life style to ever let it happen now.

The war in Iraq is just the begining we can ethier fight them over there or wait till we have to fight them here, but we will have to fight them one way or the other. they aren't going to go away or we can just surrender now like the french have done.

If we turn tail and run from them we migth as well surrender now.  You may think this war is about money and oil but there is alot more at stake than that.  These people wants the jews and  the USA put to death. There will be a end battle against them but no man will lead it.   The USA probably won't even exist by then it will either be taken over ar a socialist state by then. You or I will not be able to stop it.

I don't disagree with all you say but I know that the end is not in our control, maybe just how soon we get there.

Offline FWiedner

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« Reply #8 on: November 20, 2005, 07:18:36 AM »
Is it really?  Is this really the best that men can do as far as freedom is concerned?

G_d gave men free will to act and believe as they will, and no consideration of His purpose has been present in the actions of men and public discourse for a long time.  Oh sure, you hear men say G_d, but they are more often than not, liars and fanatics on the edge of insanity who have an agenda to control their fellow man which has nothing whatsoever to do with G_d, serving G_d, or G_d’s purpose for man.  Man got himself into this.  Men allowed this to happen.  Please leave G_d out of it, because none of this is His doing.

Neither of the current parties in power are friends of freedom.  No matter what their overriding agenda is when one of their administrations is in power, their method is to deprive other men of liberty in order to service their purpose.

Practically speaking, no political goal can be achieved unless something is forcefully taken from someone and then given to someone else who did not earn it.

Both parties do this often and with pleasure, and pat themselves firmly on the back when they do.

The Dems and Reps are equally corrupt.  The judgement on which is the more corrupt lies in which one happens to be in power.

Your rights and human rights in general mean diddly-squat to the political class, and they will allow you to go about your business as long as you remain peaceful, obedient, and continue to put money into their coffers.  When you stop doing that, then you will no longer matter to them.  If you are impoverished, they will ignore you.  If you are not, they come to take what you have.

The war in Iraq is a creation of men.  It is religious fanatics trying to force their will on other religious fanatics.  Haters of men battling haters of men, and all of them hate human freedom.  Neither “side” serves any purpose of G_d, and G_d will leave men to destroy themselves in this case.  Nothing good will come, and no resolution will be achieved.

The end battle will not take place on a battlefield.  It will take place in an office with rich men sipping brandy from crystal snifters.

Ordinary people will focus on blood and carnage and assume that loss of life, might of arms, and loyalty to cause have made a difference.

The people that matter will pocket their cash and their deeds, call for their toys to be brought home for cleaning and storage until needed again, smoke another cigar, and tell jokes about throwing away human lives for their own gain.

And I'm pretty sure that G_d won’t say or do a thing.

 :o
They may talk of a "New Order" in the  world, but what they have in mind is only a revival of the oldest and worst tyranny.   No liberty, no religion, no hope.   It is an unholy alliance of power and pelf to dominate and to enslave the human race.

Offline swiftman

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« Reply #9 on: November 20, 2005, 03:04:53 PM »
Well if it is up to man to save this world you just as well save your breath because it is not going to happen. Good By.