Converting the .410/.45 Colt barrel to shoot the .454 Casull

[Couger]

Hope I'm not going over plowed ground with this idea, my apologies if I am ......

Using an SB2 receiver that easily handles 50-52K psi pressures, is it possible to modify the .410/.45C barrel to shoot the more powerful Casull?

Putting a .454 Casull on an SB2 I believe comes down to whether the barrel can handle a cartridge that operates at 50,000 cup/psi, versus the .45C that operates at 14,000 psi.

The "choke" and key to take it in and out is made by Thompson/Center and used universally by NEF and all the custom houses that make after market single shot barrels.  I have contacted Bullberry and Virgin Valley Guns [previously] to make a barrel to fit the Encore, but would rather go with a Handi-Rifle if the .410/.45C barrel is up to the task.

Opinions please?  Comments?  THANKS!

[quickdtoo]

Here are a couple previous threads... :wink:

http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=76974&highlight=454+casull

http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=51819&highlight=454+casull

[Couger]

Thanks Quick ......

Bear with me ...... I'm a little slow I guess.  I'm still not clear whether its dangerous to modify a .410/.45C barrel to shoot a Casull, choke removed of course.

Plus I would never shoot any kind of a slug type round in a .410 - but .410 slugs (only if made w/ soft lead).

When I talked (emailed) to Bullberry and Virgin Valley Guns (I'm aware that VVG folded their tent), they said they can/could make me a .410/.454 barrel, but could not "guarantee accuracy" with the revolver rounds.

My desire to shoot the Casull in a barrel also capable of shooting a 25yd-capable shotshell, would be to have a 100yd-capable deer/foraging round.  By no means an original idea, but a worthwhile one.   :wink:

On the other hand, with the new Ruger revolver that shoots the Casull (land ooks like an overgrown SP101 on steroids!), and a singleshot "Survivor carbine" capable of killing grouse or birds up to 25 yards, and deer or moose or caribou out to 100 yards would give a downed pilot or camper in the Alaskan outback an outfit capable of defending against big bears, or helping the fellow 'walk out.'

I don't live in Alaska and have never been there, but I have spent time in wolf and grizzly country in the Rockies.  FWIW.    

[quickdtoo]

I would think with the extremely long bullet jump and abrupt throat, you're gonna take a big hit in accuracy and velocity. If the throat were long and tapered, it might be better, dunno if that's the case or not, just something to consider. I think a lot depends on the chamber, if it's according to spec, the .002" larger chamber of the 45C(if it's that tight) might introduce yaw to the bullet as it enters the throat, could cause real poor accuracy. Won't hurt to shoot it a few times to find out, though....on an SB2 frame, that is. 44Mag Handi chambers have a track record of being on the large size as reported by the 445SM shooters, kinda matches the oversize bores!

[JPH45]

I'm responding somewhat out of hand, certainly off the top of my head. Seems in seeing this discussed over time that it is possible to use the 444 case and make a kind of 444/45 from it. This helps to solve the long jump at the chamber, but what I've never been clear on is if the 410-45 Colt barrel is full length rifled or is a smooth bore with a rifled choke tube. The latter of those I could only concieve of as being useless. As to the barrel, Why wouldn't it handle the pressures? The barrel itself is far stronger than any single component, indeed the whole of the Handi lock.

Cetainly not to disuade you of persuing a 454 Casull chambering (a far better endeavor than the 500 SW ever was, wish NEF had done that instead) It strikes me that a 445 SM will do all the 454 Casull would do and doesn't require the hoop jumps a 454 would need. (OK, I'm opinionating now, I realize you didn't ask for this part) I think the idea of bullet choices is far over blown, and I also think that any differences in case sizes and operating pressure differences are also feed for technical arguements, that a well chosen bullet for the application in either cartridge will poke holes in paper, cans, cinder blocks, deer, elk, people, mild steel plates and other assorted objects and targets of opportunity.

Obvioulsy the least expensive way to 454 Casull performance is with a 45-70, but equally obvious is that a 45-70 nor a 445 SM is a 454 Casull. Keep us up to date on your exploration of this, an interesting project as it continues to resurface.

[quickdtoo]

JPH, from the H&R web site...

.... while the .410/45 Colt model has a fully rifled barrel and screw-in choke for shotshell use.

http://www.hr1871.com/firearms/index.php?cat=6&subcat=5

[Couger]

I owned a .410/.45C Survivor before I ever became aware of the Handi-Rifles and the idiosyncrasies associated with them.  Of course that puny little gun was on an SB1 receiver and more reminiscent of the "Snake Charmer" single shots than the Handi-Rifle.

That particular gun was older (been in the fellow's inventory for several years!).

Nonetheless ......

The 20" barrel (and receiver) was in the burnished silver finish (I hate "blond" guns!  Love that "evil" black color when it's flat and subdued.  I prefer function over looks.), but the barrel was fully rifled.

The "choke" wasn't really a choke in the shotgun classical sense, but rather a device that attempted to stop the .410 shot column from spinning right before it exited the muzzle.  Anyone with a BASIC understanding of physics would appreciate what any centrifical force would do to the diminutive [and puny] .410 shot charge,

[Couger]

As for shooting slugs or bullets to 100 yards and killing Bambi ......



The mention of all brass .410 cases got me to thinking ......

What about making a .410 cartridge somewhat reminiscent of the .405 Winchester?  Not a cartridge that operates at that high of a pressure, but still a "cartridge" that necks a properly loaded and slugged bullet (big enough for the barrel's true bore) with enough weight and velocity to bring down a deer to 100 yards?

I'll have to research that idea more.  But why wouldn't that work?  With a bullet fired from a case that likely headspaces from the rim, but seated so that the bullet engages the lands appropriately?  A lot will/would depend on how well built the all-brass .410 case is.

As a side note ...... Those who reload the .45 Colt to substantial pressures (when duplicating Corbon loads or shooting really heavy bullets) might be pleased to learn about a specialized .45 Colt case, called the ".45 DA Cartridge" which is a beefed-up .45C with a larger or heavier rim for more positive extraction from revolvers.  This brass carried by Starline ought to work well in singleshots too, methinks!

[Couger]

After the two previous posts ......

I went to Chuck Hawk's (the free part) and Hodgdon's sites to check out the .405 Winchester, which uses a bullet @.411 in diameter.  Overall cartridge length is approximately 3 1/4 inches.

Aside from determing what pressures a ".410 rifle [shotgun]" could function at, what opinions do others have?

Max pressures I've seen the .410 SS loaded to are 12-13.5K lup/psi, but an SB2 receiver handles much more than that.    :wink:

If the all brass .410 caes have stout, fully built-up primer pockets and case heads/rims, why wouldn't these cases withstand 28-35K cup/psi in pressure?  Or more?

The Hodgdon site said the .405 Win will drive a 300 grain RNSP bullet to 2200 fps with 50,000plus cup/psi pressure.  Muzzle energy is quite impressive too.

Of corse a .410/.45 Colt barrel ought to have enough freebore to shoot 3 inch shotshells.  And if the bore is indeed .410 despite the rifling, would be real interesting to see how well a .405 winnie bullet would move down the barrel.

Comments?



As for modifying .444 Marlin cases, I'm not going to go that route myself.

[quickdtoo]

The .018" smaller case head of the .405 would cause case head seperation, I would think. You would also need to cut the rim recess larger to use the .405 brass. Nice thinking, though, it's one of my favorite calibers, I have a .405 Winchester Target made from a .38-55 Target! :agree:

[Couger]

I've tried four times to edit or post other replies to this darn system!

The upshot is that Magtech .410 brass is only 2 1/2 inches in length, I discovered.  So yes indeed,m there would be quite a gap and jump to drive an [an accurate] bullet down a rifled bore.

Plus, my mention of the .405 Winchester was to use that round as a model.

This project to turn the .410 SS barrel into a 100yd deer killer is probably unrealistic.  FWIW.   :-D

[quickdtoo]

I know whatcha mean about the slooooow response of the forum lately, it's seems to be real bad in the last couple days......but we're gettin what we pay for! :wink:

[Kmrere42]

With the bore dia. of the rifle around .452 and allowing for the petals of the 410 shot-cup would it not be better to try using soft 44 mag lead bullets???  
 
I have had a contender in 45-.410 and the lead was a very long tapered cone to the rifling and not a step like a standard auto-pistol chamber. Even the 357 max chamber was made so .38 special ammo could be shot without damage.  
 
 
Also 444 marlin brass could be used safely if a thin sleeve was placed around the base of the cartridge and then fireformed into the shape of the chamber.  This is one of the way special cartridges are formed when exsisting brass could not be made for rare or unique chamberings.
 
There is a book called the cartridge conversion manual which lists almost every cartridge ever developed and how to make the brass for them.  
 
Paul

[Cottonwood]

I know whatcha mean about the slooooow response of the forum lately, it's seems to be real bad in the last couple days......but we're gettin what we pay for! :wink:

Well dog gone it anyway.. some of us have been out hunting filling tags and also killing critters that needed killin... see my post down at the Marlin Lever Guns forum.  

[quickdtoo]

I know whatcha mean about the slooooow response of the forum lately, it's seems to be real bad in the last couple days......but we're gettin what we pay for! :wink:

Well dog gone it anyway.. some of us have been out hunting filling tags and also killing critters that needed killin... see my post down at the Marlin Lever Guns forum.  

The slow response is the forum software/server, not the member responses, there's been lots of forum posts to keep up on.  :roll:

[Couger]

Kmrere42 ......

Any chance you could tell us more about the book on how to fabricate and manufacture various and sundry casings?  Like where to find it?  Cost?  It's official title?  Etc.  Etc.

Thanks!



The Montanan ......

Glad you're getting some serious and mandatory hunting done.  "That opportunity" has been pretty lean for some of us here on the left coast, but I do have a late season BP deer hunt coming up in couple weeks.    

[Couger]

Also .....

What about foregoing the .410 barrel ......

And using a 12 gauge barrel with a Ace Sports barrel insert to shoot the .45/70?

[Couger]

[Kmrere42]

Heres the info,


The Handloader's Manual of Cartridge Conversion

ISBN - 0883172690

This is the latest hardcover from Amazon.com

Curent price around $27. w/ free shipping.

This is the best reference for the die-hard experementer as it gves a diagram of each cartridge and a quick guide to form it as well as a basic charge to use in it.