.450 3-1/4" N.E. conversion-sort of

[coltnavy36]

Well, I did it.
The factory chamber rim was too thick for the .450 Nitro-thin rim, and it's hard to find thick rim nitro brass, so I did what one may call an American version, utilizing .45-120 brass from Bell.
Reamed the chamber of the 45-70 to 45-120(which for all intents and purposes, is the same thing as the .450-well, almost, but close enough that it does not make ANY difference, and loaded to Nitro specs.
Well, actually, not quite ALL the way.
BUT it DOES well with original spec Nitro-for Black loads, and thats all I wanted.
Actually, I believe there would be no problem with the gun with full nitro loading, but it is more about the weight of the gun, which is too light in my opinion(trying to keep a straight face). Maybe a couple or three extra pounds added would do.
22"barrel version.
IT WORKS GREAT!!! (with Nitro-for-Black only-!!!) !!!
No problems whatsoever!
When people speak of chamber pressures, they often forget that having a larger case decreases this pressure, in what would otherwise be high pressure as they are now often loading in the .45-70. I cannot understand why larger cases are not utilized for one of their intended purposes-lower pressures.
This gun can take it. Especially when the NfB loading was originally only 52 grains cordite. And light 365 gr. bullet.
Only a matter of holding on to it. The 52 grns. cordite works out to 61 grns. RL-15. Hey-thats common knowledge-not load info. It's 1.19Xcordite=grns.-RL-15
Although the only problem is the guns themselves are too light for full nitro with 480's and 70 grns. cord., but if they were heavier I'm sure they could hold it without problems.
I did this out of boredom really, and may use it on wild boar, but I will soon have a Kodiak double on the way for a .450 no.2 conversion, so this piece will just be a good conversation starter from then on.
But, it proves a point to me, and that is that these guns will hold-em', and I have no idea why in the world NEF does not have a .375H@H barrel.
Go figure. Liability? It would be good in a 24" heavy barrel with iron sights.


p.s.-for those who hate recoil do not try this route-stick with black powder loads.
I'm used to having my teeth jarred, but I'm not recommending anyone jarring theirs.
D

[quickdtoo]

Good work!! I have a lead filled pipe that just fits in the stock bolt hole that weighs 2¼lbs, that and a limbsaver slip-on recoil pad on the BC stock or a small grind to fit on the laminated stock will really take a lot of the recoil out. I've shot my 45-120 BC with 525gr Beartooth Piledrivers at well over 1700fps with plenty of room to go. 300gr NP at 2450fps are a walk in the park in comparison!! I only shoot smokeless using XMP5744 and H4895. Hodgdon shows data for up to 60gr of the H4895 with a 500gr bullet. I use Lyman 48th data for the 535gr postell using XMP5744.

http://www.african-hunter.com/450_400_nitro_express.htm

[coltnavy36]

I'll carry this handi where I don't want my doubles getting dusty, and when I find out just how much pressure this frame will take, I'll post it.
Although, I'm not that crazy, and going past Nitro-for-Black loads in the handi, makes me nervous.
I will probably stick with NfB.
The full nitro load with 80 grs, RL-15 and 500 grn. hornady full patch, would most likely tear the forend off the rifle or split the buttstock. Possibly stretching the frame-don't know. I know the barrels themselves are good for it-it's just the frame and everything wood thats attached that may not be able to manage.
But then, I would not hold it for the proofing. lol
The 12 and 20 bore tracker barrels leave open some opportunities for African bore cartridges.
Maybe a .300 H@H mag. in one of the .308 barrels.
Well, it's getting more amusing every time I think of it.
D

[coltnavy36]

I must note here though, that even with the Nitro-for-Black loadings, one can get more from that gun than any hot-loaded .45-70.
A .45-70 cannot fit that much powder in its case at all...
AND, we are talking about lower pressures here. OR at least equal in any case. Depending how hot you want to go.
This .45-120/.450 N.E. "bastard" cartridge, does and WILL beat anything currently loaded in the Handi. Hands down.
Although, it's not for the meek.
And a Cabelas padded shoulder guard helps matters tremendously.
I may go full-nitro, but due to the purposes of not being labeled as "certifiable", I may keep that outing to myself, and not write about it.
But, yes, I will continue testing, and hopefully we can get some good African cartridges RE-BORN in these "handi"-Handis.
Barrel selection is not good now though, having only .308, .357, and .458 to work with. .357-being a possible .360 N.E.
As a matter of fact I may order a couple of barrels and join them for a double. This may be the best route-different frames-same barrels.
Anyway,
take care, and if anyone has ideas let me know.
D

[quickdtoo]

One previous member had a Handi rechambered to 300 Win Mag, after 10 shots, the barrel was loose on the frame, probably due to the soft metal in the underlug as Fred has pointed out. That's most likely to happen on any Handi/BC when loaded to the max in any of the high pressure rounds, eventually.

A member at another forum purposely loaded a 45-70 Handi well over max loads using unique and the 405gr cast bullet, at pressures exceding calculated 61kpsi, the rifle popped open, but he had excess pressure signs on the brass well before that, so I doubt it would cause any catastophic failures, but it certainly would limit the life of the underlug pivot and latch surfaces on the barrel, the 2 weak points.

My recommendation would be to stick with black powder or use recommended data using smokeless checking for any signs of excess pressure. Reading the FAQ info by Fred would also be advisable since he has considerable experience with making the action as strong as it can be.

Hodgdon's, Lyman's and Accurate's data limits pressure for the 45-120 at about 26kcup to 31kcup and those are with cast bullets, not jacketed.

[coltnavy36]

Actually, the data from the powder guys are there for different purposes, which involve the 45-120 in traditional blackpowder firearms-NOT modern high pressure firearms.
The cartridge in itself is far more useful than just for traditional loading.
I DO agree however that in the handi, it should be kept to minimum.
I do NOT believe it should be loaded past the Nitro-for-Black loadings at any time in the handi.
Perhaps I contradicted myself in the last post, whilst trying for humor.
For the Nitro-for-Black loading, I think it will be FINE, and work wonders, while still surpassing the hot 45-70.
After all, for the full-nitro's, I already have one, and my new Kodiak is on the way soon for rechambering.
The 45-120 case is suited for the nitro mission, as plenty have used basic cases for .458 RCBS and several others.
The Kodiak can handle up to .450 no.2, which I'm going for in my new one, but for the handi's, we will have to keep them at Nitro-for-Black levels.
I am sure, but sadly sure, that this is as far as we can push them.
What we're looking at is the eq. of 52 to 55 grs. cordite, which is 61-65 grs. RL-15.  
Now, any much past that, and we're asking for trouble.
This should probably be a definate STOPPING point.
I will not get into the intricities of loading these as it's differing, but anyone should probably know a bit before trying them.
Fillers, etc.
But yes, the website data is there for a good reason. So that no-one will stick these in a type of reproduction such as a Sharps, rolling block, or an older rifle that cannot take it.
Even though the loads mentioned above are still easy to fire in 100 year old rifles with weaker steel-believe it or not, and are still used extensively.
Very good thinking on the powder companies part though.
I would do the same.

Also, thanks for the info on the weak parts. I felt as much.
But yes, I think the above is about as far as we can go, unfortunately.
Thank goodness for Pedersoli!
But I love my handis to, and always will.
D

[coltnavy36]

Also, I forgot something rather important.
Those above NfB loads should not be used with a bullet weighing over 365 grs., as were the originals.
Too much pressure could get involved in the whole affair.
Most weights for these loads ran from 260-365 grs.
In other words, don't load'em with big'ol solids.
The Hornady 350 soft-nose is great for'em.
D

[quickdtoo]

Actually, the data from the powder guys are there for different purposes, which involve the 45-120 in traditional blackpowder firearms-NOT modern high pressure firearms.

Actually, Lyman's data "is intended for newly manufactured guns rated for smokeless powder....not intended for use in antique guns originally built for black powder." Their words in the 48th edition.

Neither Hodgdon online or in their 2004 Annual or Accurate  indicate what firearms their loads are suitable for...

http://www.hodgdon.com/data/cowboy/lrrd.php#45-120

http://accuratepowder.com/data/PerCaliber2Guide/Rifle/ObsoleteCartridges/45%20120%20Sharps%20Straight%20page%20365.pdf

Personally, I feel the Handi//BC can handle considerably higher pressure loads in the 45-120, but since the brass is so expensive and hard to get, don't feel I want to shorten brass life with real hot loads, something I can afford to do easier in the 45-70 using smokeless since it will easily handle lower Ruger #1 loads in my rifles.

[50 Calshtr]

ColtNavy36
   Sounds like a good project.  I've been thinking about trying to get one of the 50 cal Huntsman barrels without the breach drilled and tapped for the breach plug and chamber it for 577/500 #2 or 500 BPE. Both would match the bore diameter and the twist is about right.  A set of express sights on the barrel and it would be pig huntin' time.  By the way do you have any extra RCBS 45 Basic cases you might want to part with?  My 45-120 is looking for some.  Thanks.

[quickdtoo]

Midway has Bertram in stock...

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=126332

Other sources for 45-120-3¼" brass are..

http://www.black-powder.com/BPC%20sub%20pages/BellBrass.htm

www.trackofthewolf.com

www.buffaloarms.com

www.huntingtons.com

Since the Bell brass factory was bought by Mast Technology and subsequently shut down, they are in very short supply.

[50 Calshtr]

Thanks Tim.

[coltnavy36]

I do have a few cases, but can't part with them at this moment.
They will probably be the only ones I have until possibly Starline maybe and FINALLY goes to the 45-120 one of these days.
I'm dropping back to straight conversion from black at 48 grs 4198 to be on the safe side, and would not recommend anyone pass this point.
Can be done, but hey, anything hit with that 500 grainer won't know the difference.
As for me, I'm shooting straight blackpowder loads now, as I feel more comfortable with them.
The other express cartridges have been in my mind also.
Good thinking.
However, at this point, for me, there is a tracker 2 12-bore barrel here that is about to be introduced to original style bore rifle loadings, as I have a new mold from NEI.
This is going to be fun.

[coltnavy36]

Before anyone mentioning the Dixie slugs, let me first say that I'm doing a Bore-Rifle. This is NOT a Paradox, and is not intended to be.
Neither is the Dixie slug a original Paradox loading.
These are three completely different things.
The Dixie slug is a modern load.
The Paradox is for H@H choke-rifled barrels.
And the Bore-Rifle is, well, a Bore-Rifle.
What I am going for is historically accurate cartridges and loading.
Nothing modern.
And these will use black powder.
NEI has wonderful molds. Magtech has brass.
Walla.
I'm still testing, but will let ya'll know the results.
I just wanted to mention this before someone came to this thread and mentioned Dixie slugs.

As for the other express cartridges, .500 express would be good. 577-500 may take away too much chamber wall, but I've measured and it does not look that bad.
Anyway,
these are good thoughts from all of you.
Keep it coming.
I'll get another thread going on the 12-bore rifle soon, as this is another subject.
D

[50 Calshtr]

You may want to double check your chamber/bore sizes if you are wanting to use brass cases.  As you probably know they have much thinner walls than the plastic cases the chamber is sized for and a bullet that will fit the brass case will be oversize for the bore.  I believe a 12 bore brass case requires 11 gauge wads as an example.  Ross Siefried wrote several articles in this vein in Rifle and Handloader magazines when he was with them, may be worth reading.  Let us know how it works out!

[coltnavy36]

I agree.
Quite a bit of work to go on all of the 12-bore things yet.
I knew that I would possibly have these obstacles.
The brass cases could be annealed and neck sized, but not sure yet as to measurements exactly.
There is a possiblity that I may have to go with a Fosbery type using a plastic case.
Takes away from the overall awe of a loaded brass case, but hey, they are cheap, everywhere, and it does not matter if you lose a few hunting with them.
I know there are some guys in Australia, who are doing this for buff.
Seems they are using .740 dia. in regular rifled 12's.
If there were bad rumors concerning dia., they have not mentioned it.
Although, the .735 or .740 looks good, the brass cases would eithe have to be sized or crimped slightly right at the mouth.
I've even seen brass cases with round ball which were star-crimped.
But yes, the dia. is going to have to check out good with the bullet.
I've got a bit of a ways to go on most of this.

Also, back to the .450:
since I'm still on this thread.
The CUP-pressure:
I'm getting by cross reference-around 48000 CUP with the full nitro load and 500 gr. solid.
FUNNY-since everyone that has a 30-06 in the handi-rifle, is going to be running close to or at 50000 CUP.
And they do it EVERY DAY.

But, then again, I'm probably wrong, according to others.
I'll leave this to opinion, because I'm not here to convince anyone.

[Mac11700]

Also, back to the .450:
since I'm still on this thread.
The CUP-pressure:
I'm getting by cross reference-around 48000 CUP with the full nitro load and 500 gr. solid.
FUNNY-since everyone that has a 30-06 in the handi-rifle, is going to be running close to or at 50000 CUP.
And they do it EVERY DAY.

Have you ever done a comparison on the amount of back thrust a 30-06 case head gives at 50,000 cup...as compared to the 45-120 case head at the same pressures...or on what the 450 M or 500 Smith & Wesson does at their pressures?..I'm not a math expert..but seeing as though the pressures are all close to the same..I'm just wondering what it calculates out to..From my conversations with the guys at Nosler...Barnes...Hornady...Hodgdons,Winchester..the dwell time(duration of pressure) of the shot comes into play more with the truely large bores...not that I am advocating over stressing the soft lug area and frames...namely because of the weak lock up these have as compared to the fine double guns big bores come with..but again..only out of curiosity..

Mac

[coltnavy36]

I have not done it yet. But I plan on it.
I am familiar with the case head variations in pressure, and was hoping someone would bring this up.
Again, I'm not advocating anything which may put stress on a firearm or shooter, as it may be.
However, only, I am trying to get some collective juices flowing on the subject, and find out some of the reasons as to why this does that and so forth.
One thing I found odd today while looking through my (old) NRA load book, is a  pressure of 49000-something for a high end 45-70 load for modern single shots.
The thing which struck me is that that surpasses the .450 Nitro.
But thats not the end of it.
They have the same case head.
I do believe in the handi's being overstressed, and as mentioned in another thread, a 300 mag did it, but however, the 300 works at MUCH higher pressure than the 450 or this high end 45-70.
Anything over 50000CUP is too much for the handi in my opinion, and the 300 mag passed that mark.
Neither the hot 45-70 or the 450 would come NEAR that 300 mag.
Odd true, but it is true.
There is one factor involved though and as you had mentioned, it is frame and lug stress, etc.
I am neither going to be testing any of this myself, and do not advise differing from the load books, but if somehow, it helps in understanding the handi, I'll keep studying.
I'm using black powder eqv. loads now with 4198, and have no need to go any higher, but keeping these thoughts in mind may help for any custom handis that may come into being.
If the occasion arrives when I need more than the handi, I'll grab the Kodiak I'm recieving soon, reamed to 450no.2.
But yes, I think this is why the handis will not hold magnums like 300 mag, etc, or any others.
But possibly CAN handle lower pressure, LARGE case capacity rounds.
After all, that hot 45-70, and I'm sure other hot 45-70s are passing the 450 by, with the same case head  by about 1500-2000 cup.
Just thoughts.
Fun to think of, but not to try at home sort of stuff.
I just do not think the frame is strong enough.
And if it IS, then it's just borderline, just like the hot 45-70's.
Me, I'll stick with black-eqv. loads cause I don't need more at this time.
Fun stuff to think of though.
D

[coltnavy36]

I seem to have answered myself, as I had, in the first post or so, mentioned the 375 Holland@H. Well, it seems all of the above, is the reason.
The past week going through all of this has been insightful on what the handi will and will not do, and hopefully it will help.
Handis don't like modern magnums, due to the frame, and pressure above 50grand.
But they just might tolerate cases of unheard of capacity with lower pressures.
But, all of this is actually needless.
If someone needs more, then buy a different rifle, or build a double on a good shotgun frame. Because if you can afford to hunt that kind of game animal, then obviously you can afford another rifle.
Which leads me to question why I got onto this subject, and the answer is a definate one. Curiosity.
But oh well, enough of this, because it's time for me to tinker with the Tracker 2, 12-bore RIFLE.
Also, as a note about reading my posts-sometimes I may not add up, so to speak, and it's because of my days here, and either excessive coffee or not enough sleep, so in that regard, please forgive me if I cross the line into daydreaming about what the handi or any other rifle will and will not do, as I do not want to see anyone divert from the published data, as it could cause harm.
My thoughts are generally out of curiosity and a general lack of attention here at my humble home where many rifles are tinkered with.
Take care, and go by the book.

Also, I might add, before I leave this thread, that if you have a 45-120 converted handi-PLEASE do not try any loads with it that are not either straight nitro-for-black loads, or listed in your load manual.
All of the above guessing in this thread, is just that, -guessing.

Have a good week ya'll, I'm going after some wild hogs tomorrow.
CN36

[safetysheriff]

colt'

i read as much of it all as i could stand    i don't think there's anything wrong with you.   i think the rest of us are all screwed up! :roll:    good luck with the shotgun work you are planning.........

in all seriousness, now: if you are hurting that much from a "general lack of attention" then you either ought to find a girl, or maybe try alcoholism! :shock:  

i hope this has helped you

take care,

ss'