Author Topic: Wheel weight question (Read 2364 times)

Don45 · « **on:** September 15, 2005, 04:29:05 PM »

Hello I hope that you might be able to help me, I am going to start casting my own bullets as soon as I can get all the gear together. I have read about casting and talked to guys at the gun club I belong to and I have got different opinions on using wheel weights, some say that you need to add 50/50 bar solder others say that you just melt down the wheel weights and use them. One guy didnt like the idea of using just straight wheel weights as he thought that it didnt have enough tin to keep the antimony from scratching the barrel. So any information on what works and is not bad for the barrel would be much appreciated.

Don

John Traveler1 · « **Reply #1 on:** September 15, 2005, 05:02:55 PM »

Bullet casting using wheelweights is pretty straighforward:

1. It's the lowest cost alternative to buying commercially cast bullets.

2. Straight ww alloy is fine for most pistol bullets at standard vehlocities.

3. Adding tin (in the form of 50/50 solder makes the alloy flow better, and provides better mold fillout. Adding tin gives the additional benefit of allowing higher velocities without leading pistol or rifle barrels. Pure lead with antimony is relatively hard, but gives bad leading at all velocities. It won't scratch your barrel; tin, antimony, and lead are all much softer than barrel steel.

4. Be sure to THOROUGHLY melt and flux your ww in a separate post (NOT your bullet casting pot) and pour into ingots. There is an incredible about of grease, grit, and crap that comes from melting down ww, and you don't want it to get into your bullet alloy.

5. Be SURE to inspect ww and discard the adhesive tape backed flat ww used on mag wheels. They are much harder, and likely to contain zinc and cadmium. The zinc ruins bullet alloy, and the cadmium ruins YOU.

6. Get a copy of the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook or write the NRA for their publications on bullet casting. Both are industry standards for the what-to-do in bullet casting.

7. An inexpensive way to start is the Lee Products line. Many of us started casting with Lee equipment and still do.

HTH
John

gutshot_again · « **Reply #2 on:** September 16, 2005, 05:37:41 AM »

5. Be SURE to inspect ww and discard the adhesive tape backed flat ww used on mag wheels. They are much harder, and likely to contain zinc and cadmium. The zinc ruins bullet alloy, and the cadmium ruins YOU

The ones I've run into seem to be as close to pure lead as you can get. I save them off to the side to melt down later for use as cores in swaging bullets. They sure do smoke and raise a stink though in the initial cleanup.

Chief · « **Reply #3 on:** September 16, 2005, 05:08:20 PM »

I would have to say the stick on wheel weights I've found are very soft, softer than the clip on weights. Also, I've alloyed some antimony with lead and the antimony floats just like the metal clips. So...in my opinion, even if you happened to run across a wheel weight with a chunk of antimony in it, it would likely get skimmed off when you cleaned the weights. I wouldnt think the antimony actually alloyed in with the lead could scratch a barrel.

Chief

Chief · « **Reply #4 on:** September 16, 2005, 05:31:35 PM »

I would have to say the stick on wheel weights I've found are very soft, softer than the clip on weights. Also, I've alloyed some antimony with lead and the antimony floats just like the metal clips. So...in my opinion, even if you happened to run across a wheel weight with a chunk of antimony in it, it would likely get skimmed off when you cleaned the weights. I wouldnt think the antimony actually alloyed in with the lead could scratch a barrel.

Chief

Robert · « **Reply #5 on:** September 16, 2005, 07:16:41 PM »

Wheel weights work excellent. If you have trouble with wrinkles or filling out the mold...sure....add some tin/spend some money. But you can usually overcome this by casting at the right temperature, and pre-heating your molds. I keep a little hot plate near my casting equipement, and if I have to stop for some reason, I put my mold on the hot plate.

Will52100 · « **Reply #6 on:** September 17, 2005, 02:13:12 AM »

For the most part the stick on wheel weights I've come accross are near pure lead and I save them for black powder use, but I have come across a couple that were very hard and brittle and wouldn't melt in my pot. If they seem to take a long time to melt just dip them out and get rid of them, be they stick on or regular wheel weights.

For most of my shooting WW work great as cast with no leading.

Possum · « **Reply #7 on:** September 17, 2005, 02:41:03 AM »

I just poured some straight wheel weights for the first time. The first I poured I had a time with. Added some tin to the second batch and did not have a problem. I dropped them in a water bucket and got some really nice and hard 30.06 bullets. They have good fillout and look good too. Now I just have to get them loaded :grin:

JPH45 · « **Reply #8 on:** September 17, 2005, 08:56:33 AM »

Typically, people either shoot straight WW or WW with about 2% tin (by total weight) added. I take a roll of the lead free solder (about $8.00 per pound in these parts) un roll it and divide it into thirds, then add one third to 20 pounds of metal. Works out to about 1.6% tin, but is enough to help with fillout.

Some habits die hard. I'm not convinced that tin is nessicary these days an the antimony content of WW is only about 4%. In the old days (1970's and earlier) the antimony content was up around 9%. If you didn't add tin to that percentage, you couldn't get fillout. These days I dont have any trouble getting good fillout with straight WW, and more than a few complain that adding tin creates trouble for them. Go figure, I add because it's what I learned to do, but I've cast enough with straight WW to know that the tin generally ain't nessicary.

Your buddy who thiks the antimony would be hard on a barrel ain't thought this through too well. If that were a problem, casters would avoid WW like the plague, and that's hardly the case at all. Adding tin will help to make a better alloy, as the tin and antimony will alloy and the tin will alloy with the lead, all of which will help to keep the antimony from crystalizing unto itself on cooling. Adding the tin will give you somewhat prettier bullets and will harden them up a few BHN too.

With a good barrel and a good load and good lube, air cooled WW with or without a touch of tin should carry you into 1800 fps with ease. Heat treat the stuff and you can go 2000+ Get a copy of Veral Smiths "Jacketed Bullet Performance with Cast Bullets" It'll open your eyes.

rickyp · « **Reply #9 on:** September 17, 2005, 01:32:37 PM »

I still have about a hundred pounds of W.W. that I have yet to do any thing with. I have about 20 pounds that I made into Lyman #2 (or as close as I can get) I use a 1 LB of 50/50 solder roll with 9 lbs of W.W. and use lyman super moly lube. I cast bullets for 357 mag/ 38 special, 45 colt, 9mm, .458 (45-70) I have at one time casted for 30-30 and 7mm and have yet to have any troubles with them

Don45 · « **Reply #10 on:** September 19, 2005, 12:19:00 PM »

Thanks for all the information I really appreciate it.
Now I just have to get all the gear and start casting.

Don

rickyp · « **Reply #11 on:** September 19, 2005, 02:14:33 PM »

lyman has a very good starter kit for around $120

Possum · « **Reply #12 on:** September 20, 2005, 12:29:10 AM »

I shot the 30.06 WW bullets Sun at the range. I was getting from 1700 to 2000fps with the 130gr bullets that were water quenched. No leading at all and shot well. Best of all, it cost me about 2.00 for alll my shots (primers and powder). WW are the way to go!

Leftoverdj · « **Reply #13 on:** September 20, 2005, 07:28:58 AM »

I routinely add tin to WW because I have run into batches that needed it. I batch 125 pounds at a time and would rather spend the extra money than risk having to redo a batch. Most of the time, I have scrounged solder or linotype (20 pounds of lino to 100 WW). Even if I have to buy a couple rolls of lead free solder, my alloy cost is only about a quarter a pound. I can live with that.

Other folks get along just fine with straight WW, so the tin is optional. I think I get my money's worth, but I would not argue with someone who does it another way.

MTleadhead · « **Reply #14 on:** September 25, 2005, 03:09:07 PM »

I've used thousands of pounds of wheel weights during my casting career, and find them very suitable for most uses. I do however add 2% tin to wheel weights for 2 reasons. First of all, with pure wheel weight you will find it difficult to get good fill-out in molds that have sharp edged lube grooves, hollow points or other fine features. Unless you cast at 800 degrees or above. Which is the second reason I add tin to wheel weights. Tin reduces the surface tension of lead allowing better fill-out of the mold and also reduces the temperature needed to cast good bullets. Lower temperature means longer pot life and allows for faster casting rates.

Don45 · « **Reply #15 on:** October 08, 2005, 10:36:17 AM »

Thanks for the info. I have started to get my stuff gathered together, I traded with a guy a spotting scope I had and didn't use for a old style Lyman 450 a couple of sizing dies and top punches and a couple of moulds and a few other small items to do with casting. I am now waiting on a friend that has casting equipment to go through it and see if he has any extra equipment that I can get off him.
Thanks again for the posts.

Don

JPH45 · « **Reply #16 on:** October 08, 2005, 05:40:43 PM »

Don45, What equipment are you looking for??? Sounds to me as though all you need now is a pot to make ingots in, one to use as your melt pot and a dipper. The pots can be had at yard sales, a Coleman stove will work fine as a heat source and some metal. Keep it simple. You can do a lot of casting and shooting without much fancy gear.

sundogg1911 · « **Reply #17 on:** October 28, 2005, 06:09:41 AM »

I always recomend start off with used or inexpensive (Lee) stuff. you can add to it with better more expensive stuff after you cast 2 or 3 times. It takes practice and patience to get it to the point that it seems easy. I've bought a lot of nice barely used casting equipment from people that decided after trying it once or twice that it's not for them.

Slamfire · « **Reply #18 on:** October 28, 2005, 12:47:28 PM »

Lee has gas check designs in their mold line, that I find great for use in the 7mm TCU. A touch of tin, like others said, and you can push 'em over 2000 fps without leading the barrel. If you do run into leading, an Outers fould out will remove it down to the molecular level by electro plating it onto a steel rod. No scrubbing required.

Fireball 57 · « **Reply #19 on:** November 02, 2005, 07:28:43 PM »

Don45: I hope ya are not too adicted into reloading 'cause casting is addictive and downright rewarding! Wheelweights, properly fluxed, can be used for pistol bullets and rifle bullets. :-) Simple, inexpensive tools can be obtained and used. Just always, use good washing techniques, clothes changing and ventalation to prevent contamination to you and your family as even a little elevated blood lead levels is not good. Regards

Robert · « **Reply #20 on:** November 03, 2005, 06:37:11 AM »

This is all good advice....make sure to listen to Fireball about safety and ventelation.
For ingots...I use the little cast iron frying pans that they sell in sporting good stores as camp ashrays and spoon-holders. The lead realeases easily, and the flat ingots can be scratched easily with W/W or P.L. or what ever mix is in the ingot, and they stack up like cookies. If I am just making a few bullets for experiments, the thinner ones, 1/2 incch or so can be easily cut with aa pair of snips or bolt-cutters to get a small peice to melt in my ladle. I do the small batcches with the ladle and a plumbers torch. I always keep a torch handy, it helps with a lot of things....heating the mold, cleaning the bottom pour spout, or if lead ends up in the wrong place either outside or inside the mold....the torch is the esiest thing to use for cleaning it off.

Lead pot · « **Reply #21 on:** November 05, 2005, 07:53:06 AM »

Depending what your casting the bullets for.
Personally I don't use WW for my Black powder shooting, I use a soft 1-30 and 1-40 tin lead mix. that is plenty of tin to fill the bullet properly at 750 degs and it is plenty hard enough.
I have no leading problem at loads I shoot up to 1500 fps.
I have used WW and adding 50% lead and had good shooting bullets. There is plenty tin in WW with the Antimony to fill the lube grooves.

Alloy "Average" Composition

Wheel Weights, clip-on
1/2% tin, 4% antimony,
95.25% lead, 1/4% arsenic
Foundry Type 15% tin, 23% antimony, 62% lead
Wheel Weights, stick-on
Pure lead or nearly so Scrap range lead Could be (and is) anything
Linotype
4% tin, 12% antimony, 84% lead Plumbers lead 99%+ pure lead.
Monotype
9% tin, 19% antimony, 72% lead Lyman's No. 2 5% tin, 5% antimony, 90% lead

Kurt

Kenneth L. Walters · « **Reply #22 on:** December 03, 2005, 12:17:47 PM »

My experience with wheelweights has been mixed. In low powered pistol cartridges they seem to work just fine. In some rifles, particularly if the powder charge is pretty weak, they do pretty good. In high powered rifle or pistol loads, however, accuracy for me has been, well, miserable.

My impression from reading other's posts, however, is that if you know what you are doing you can get really good performance out of wheelweights at just about any pressure level. Might have to quench them when they are made or heat them up in the oven (my wife would kill me if I tried that) but my understanding is that if you know what you are doing you can get really good performance out of wheelweights.

The 2nd edition of Lee's reloading handbook, I'm told, explains how to get good results from wheelweights.

What I find most interesting about wheelweights, however, is how emotional some people get over them. I said once that I didn't think that they performed all that well at high pressures. I learned what being flamed was all about. 54 posts on another web site call me just about every name those people could spell. Dumb, stupid, senile, etc. The e-mails I got were so profane that I had myself removed from the site. SO if you say anything bad about wheelweights you are inviting a real beating.

Also some people are VERY VERY touchy about explaining how to get good performance out of wheelweights. I don't know how to do it but I do know that asking that question can get you flamed. Why I don't know.

So my experience has been poor BUT I think if you know what you are doing wheelweights can probably be made to work well at any pressure level. Lee's 2nd handbook supposedly explains how.

myronman3 · « **Reply #23 on:** December 03, 2005, 01:09:06 PM »

i use wheel weights for bullets for my 44 mag, 45 auto, and my bro's 10mm. they work good enough for the girls i date. accuracy is no less or no greater than copper production bullets. the same. good enough for me.

Quote

I learned what being flamed was all about. 54 posts on another web site call me just about every name those people could spell. Dumb, stupid, senile, etc. The e-mails I got were so profane that I had myself removed from the site. SO if you say anything bad about wheelweights you are inviting a real beating.

well i can about guareentee that aint going to happen here. someone might disagree with you, which is fine. but flaming doesnt fly around here. healthy debate is one thing, flaming is another.

with wheel weights, all i do is cast them, drop into a bucket of water, let dry for a day or two, then store them. i lube and size them a day or two before i use them for loading.

here is what they will do out of my f.a. 44 mag at 50 yards...

myronman3 · « **Reply #24 on:** December 03, 2005, 01:16:16 PM »

the kid dont play....

Goatlips · « **Reply #25 on:** December 03, 2005, 06:34:56 PM »

Myronman,

Anyone that likes Old Milwaukee and wheelweights is OK in my book... :wink:

Goatlips

JPH45 · « **Reply #26 on:** December 04, 2005, 02:16:02 PM »

I can say that getting 30 BHN from wheel weight metal is no big mystery. It even works when the WW have been diluted from straight to a 1 to 1 mix with 20:1. Simply take your bullets and stand them on end on a flat sheet, heat them in an oven at 425 degrees, have a 5 gallon bucket of water next to the stove, after an hour, open the door, slip out the try and drop the bullets into the water, the faster the movement from the oven to the water the better.

I used a 60 bullet sample from the Lee 312-185-1R for my first attempt. I first ran them through a sizer die,a .310, the only one I have at present) I was afraid that the bullets would show some kind of damage or deformations, but not at all. My batch tested to 31 BHN next day. I loaded and fired them in a 7.62X54R with a groove diameter of 314. Leaded the crap out of my barrel, but I do not fault the hardening process with this, I was shooting a .004" undersize bullet with a load that should have cranked out 1800 fps or so. Anyone who knows will tell you this is a surefire recipe for a leaded barrel. I've yet to try bullets so hardened again, don''t have the right size die for my lubrasizer. The bullets need to be sized, but not lubed before hardening, so that they don't soften some on sizing afterward.

cbrick · « **Reply #27 on:** December 04, 2005, 05:06:25 PM »

JPH45,

Too much of a good thing is not a good thing. Unless you were shooting a high pressure load you would have probably leaded the barrel anyway. If the BHN is too high for the pressure of the laod your using it in the base of the bullet will not obturate and seal the bore causing leading, usually on the trailing edge of the rifling.

Why are we "Boycott Natchez Shooters Supplies, Inc"??

Rick