243 and 80 grain Remington PSP vs deer

[rickt300]

For some reason I haven't been able to access this board for more than a week.  I went out to the lease yesterday to fill my last doe tag and because I have a new 243 and a box of Remington 80 grain PSP's I thought they would make a good combination on my last deer of the season.  The deer on this lease, especially the does are not hard to get almost perfect shot presentations on. The shot I took was a bit tougher than usual but no problems.  The doe was angling downhill to my right, she was maybe 40 feet higher than where I was standing. I had a solid rest against an old metal building and she was maybe 90 yards away. I also had to contend with brush that covered the bottom half of her chest. When she stopped her neck was behind a mesquite tree but I had an open shot at the top half of her chest.  I aimed just behind and below the bottom edge of her shoulder blade. At the shot she dropped and was still before I covered the 90 yards. The bullet had made a 2 inch hole in her rib cage on her right side and angled upward and reaeward to smash into the spine. It angled to her left rear thru 5-6 inches of spine to end up under the hide as pieces.  When it went thru the rib cage it threw rib fragments/ bullet fragments into the rear of the lungs and back thru the liver to the diaphram. She bled a lot thu the entrance hole where she lay.  Darn good performance for a "varmint bullet".

[Redhawk1]

Congrats on the deer.  

[Cobra7]

The .243 kicks butt!! I shoot 100gr. Rem. Core-Lokts.   Sean

[Savage .250]

The 80 gr would not be my first choice but you got the results needed so
   that`s all that counts.  Nice shot.

[NimrodRx]

Okay, I'll say it.  That's not all that counts.  One kill with a particular bullet tells us little, if anything.  Any cartridge will kill under optimal conditions.  You did make a good shot - congrats.  Had you hit that shoulder on a raking shot like you took, it is likely the bullet would have splashed and never even entered the thorax.  

I don't mean to take anything away from your trophy.  I'm sure you are a great shot and an experienced hunter.  The kind of person for which the .243 is suited.  

What concerns me is the fact that a lot of youngsters (at least in my area) are starting out with the .243 due to the light recoil.  This cal leaves little margin for error in shot placement.  Combine that with frangible bullet construction and you've got a recipe for disaster.  I would hate for someone to read your report and come to the conclusion that it is acceptable to select a varmint bullet for deer sized game.

[rickt300]

The Remington 80 grain PSP is not an especially soft bullet. It was designed a long time ago sometime before bullets that could instantly vaporize were available. It actually holds together prettyy well.  I don't buy the marginal lable many put to the 243 because of the major damage I have seen it produce on deer sized game.  It easily outclasses the 30-30 as far as radial damage is concerned and penetration is more than adequate. As to the report it was not meant as a reccomendation but more as a report on a single instance of good bullet performance. If you are not confident enough of your shooting skills to place your bullets behind the shoulder or into the spinal column then maybe stronger bullet construction would be of some help but it won't give you any quicker kills.

[Cobra7]

Most of the critics of the .243 have never hunted with one or have hunted very little with one. They go on stories they have heard from other people. All I know is 100 dead deer in the freezer would not be any deader if I had shot them with a basooka. Shoot them in front of the shoulder(NECK) and they will drop. Shoot them behind the shoulder and they may run a small distance but will leave a blood trail even a Nimrod could follow.   Sean

[rickt300]

I agree, anyone who has seen the damage done by a 243 and still says it's not enough has a learning disability.

[harvester]

I agree, anyone who has seen the damage done by a 243 and still says it's not enough has a learning disability.

i've seen plenty of damage done by the .243.  not as much killing as i'd like though.

i'd be careful assuming that because someone's opinion differs, they have a learning disability.

btw, for shots inside of 150 yards, i'd prefer the 30-30.  larger wound channel and further penetration.

i would not recommend a .243 or a neck shot to an inexperienced hunter, for many reasons.

for more in-depth explanations, see the thread titled: "any 243 fans" in the bolt action forum.

[rickt300]

I won't argue the 30-30 having deeper penetration but larger wound channel not by a long shot.  I cleaned and skinned three deer killed with the 30-30 that were shot with Remington factory 170 grain corelokts. Small exit holes and internal damage was not impressive. There were 4 deer shot with 243's on our lease this year. Mine with the 80 grain PSP and the others were taken with the 90 grain bullet Remington puts in their factory loads that looks like a ballistic tip. The deer shot with this rifle were taken by a 10 year old girl. 2 dropped and one ran 30 yards, all chest hits in the ribs that exited. The damage the 30-30 did was minamal compared to what these 243 loads provided.  I wouldn't try for a neck shot either at 150 yards with my open sighted 30-30. On the other hand an accurate scope sighted 243 is easily capable of hitting a deer exactly where you want out to at least 200 yards. If you are not capable of such accuracy go for what you are capable of.

[harvester]

yes, rick, but you can't compare a polymer tip bullet to a thinly jacketed, soft nose lead bullet, fired at the chest.  if you stand a deer broadside at 100 yards, and fire a polymer tipped bullet from a .243, as well as a rem core lokt, the .243 bullet wound would be more impressive going through that soft tissue.  however, i find myself presented with more angled shots, less than perfect shots, with snow, wind, or other environmental factors.  i find that 30-30 bullet will perform better across the board, whereas the .243 bullet is built to excel in a particular situation. (at short distances, of course.  i'm not trying to argue that the 30-30 is a better all around deer gun.)

the .243 can be a great deer gun.  i'm just of the opinion that it should be reserved for more skilled hunters who have a better knowledge of bullet construction and shot selection.

[rickt300]

Shoot 20 or so deer with a 243 using the 105 grain Speer or Remington 100 grain corelokt and you will find the 243 is every bit as capable as the 30-30 and usable at much longer ranges.  The lighter bullets such as those mentioned previously work well for the majority of reasonable shot angles. If I made a habit of slamming bullets into deer from any angle  I would thoroughly examine my hunting methods to see what the problem is. The only deer shot on our lease that made recovery a project was the buck hit in the chest with the 30-30. The hit was low in the chest near the heart angling back to exit the other side just behind the diaphram. The deer was found after 3 people looked for it for 2 hours. If that bullet had provided the radial damage of  a 243  the heart and lungs would have been far more damaged and the exit hole would certainly been larger. As it was the blood trail was pretty thin to non existant and we had to find it by grid searching thick brush. It was still alive when found.  My 30-30 gets 150 grain bullets and I don't take iffy shots with it either.

[harvester]

ok, rick, i'm not putting the 30-30 against the .243, that was just an example.

i'm not going to get into another .243 discussion either.  its pointless.  everytime this argument comes up, all i hear about is how many deer that someone has shot with their .243.  (incidentally, the .243 has many years to go to match the number of deer shot by the 30-30, at least up in michigan.)  that's not the point.  the only way you'll get a .243 to expand more than a 30 caliber bullet is through fragmentation.  if you're comfortable with that, go ahead.  i do not like fragmentation because it reduces penetration, and contrary to your experience, exit wounds bleed far more than entrance wounds.  and why is it that every .243 fan talks as though deer are never wounded with it - they all die a quick death?

if all you ever do is shoot broadside through the chest, why limit yourself to the .243?  hell, use a .22-250.  i mean, you're only talking .02" diameter difference.  and if you buy one with a faster twist that the standard 1:14", you'll easily stabilize those 70 and 80 grain .224 diameter bullets.  if you're only ever shooting through the chest - practically ANY gun will work.

so congrats on your deer.  shoot whatever you'd like to shoot.  i'm not advocating that anyone slam bullets into deer from all angles.  i just like to carry a gun that makes me feel as though, should the errant shot arise, be it my fault, or some unforseen circumstance, i'm carrying a little extra insurance.  straight line penetration through bone, for example.  for those reasons, i like something other than the .243.

what is it with this site that no one wants to concede that there might be advantages and disadvantages to choices in gear, particularly guns?

just my opinion, i still have the right to that, don't I?

[Big Wenger]

Interesting thread, guys.  I took my first deer last season with a Browning BLR chambered for .243.  The rifle hadn't been fired for ages.  I got it out and cleaned it then started looking around the house for ammo.  I found nineteen .243 soft point rounds with Remington headstamps in an old margerine bowl.  The box was long gone.  I cleaned the green stuff off of the old rounds and headed to the neighbor's field to test the rifle.  Five accurate shots proved that the scope was right on.  I was ready.  The only thing that worried me was that I didn't know if the bullets were 80 or 100 grain.  My father, who has taken many deer with a 6mm Rem., assured me that either bullet weight would do the job.  I headed to the deer woods.

The third day of hunting presented me with a nice shot, a mature doe 10 yards away and quartering toward me.  I put the crosshairs right behind the middle of the deer's shoulder and squeezed the trigger.  The Browning went off and the deer jumped straight up in the air.  As soon as it landed, it ran.  I thought for an instant that I had somehow missed.  Then I saw that it had a big wound behind the shoulder toward me.  The deer ran about 30 yards leaving blood splatters the whole way.  It fell over and expired when it started up the other side of the draw that I was hunting.  I walked over to it.  The side of the deer that was facing up was untouched.  I rolled it over and saw an oblong wound about two inches tall and three inches long on the side of the deer that was toward me when I fired.  There was no exit wound.   I dragged the deer out and while I was wrestling with it to get it loaded, I could hear the wound sucking air.  I figured that it was lung damage that did the deer in.  While I dressed the animal, I saw that the shot had severed two ribs and done a lot of internal damage.  No bullet was recovered.  

I was happy with the performance of the .243, but I'm still wondering if that was a 80 or 100 grain bullet.  A couple weeks ago I found the 20th round out of the box.  It had gotten into a dark and dusty corner of the closet and was very nasty.  I pulled the bullet out of it and it looked a little bigger than a 87 grain .243/6mm Hornady but it's hard to tell by eyeballing.  I don't have a scale.  I shot up the rest of the mystery box plinking.  One didn't fire due to an old primer, I suppose.  Then I went and bought a box of 100 grain Core-Lokts for next season.

Great site, BTW.

[rickt300]

The 100 grain corelokt is noticably longer than the 80 grain PSP.  I also have a 6MM Remington and the last three boxes of factory loads I bought for brass were labled 100 grain corelokt but contained the 80 grain PSP. I don't believe I can reccomend the 80 grain PSP if you plan on shooting thru a deers shoulder, I haven't tried it and it did a number on around 6 inches of spine but why take a chance. Even if there was not a problem the shoulder would be wasted.  Ihave never had to shoot a bullet thru a shoulder. I mean unless I just wanted to and I am over that.  If all you can see of a deer is a thin vertical strip of the shoulder I think you should hold your fire till you can get a better look at it. Why destroy that much meat anyway? Why not shoot just in front of the shoulder and go for the spine/neck?

[flintlock]

Big...Glad you got your deer...welcome to the sport....If I am reading your post right...Deer was quartering toward you...and you held BEHIND the shoulder....At that angle you need to hold in front of the shoulder or on the shoulder...depending on the angle....I have also seen a deer hit like this...We also got the deer...but..we were lucky...

This happens alot I'm afraid...thats where we hear...I hit him right on the shoulder...he ran, fell, got up....ran 1/2 mile etc....When you hear that....I usually figure that the deer was quartering and the hunter got excited and didn't hold where he should have....I have even had guys that didn't know where the deer was standing at the shot....or which way they ran....

As a general rule remember...try to brake the leg on the other side of the deer....Or, like someone else has said...Imagine a soccor ball between their shoulders....and bust that ball....Good Luck

[Big Wenger]

Rickt300, the mystery bullet is 1.010" long.  Does that sound like a 80 grain PSP or a 100 grain Core-Lokt?

[rickt300]

I measured two of the 80 grain PSP's and they measured .837-.838. I figure it was the 100 grain bullet. If I have a quartering toward me shot and I can see it I like to hit just above center in the neck in front of the shoulder. If not I do as I described in the opening post of this thread, go for the spine behind the shoulder blade. I have made a few hits as you describe with good results. Punching a big hole thru the diaphram may be messy but they need that diaphram to breathe with. Not to mention a fast expanding bullet is going to do a lot of damage to the rear of the lungs and liver on the way there cause alot of internal bleeding.

[257 roberts]

I don't use a 243, but I hunt a plantation in S.C. and this year a guy used the same bullet and killed two deer stone dead.
I asked him about the combo and he said that it had never let him down.