All the reports at PM say the 32gr Vmax makes a small hole in and no exit...it doesn't get any better than that. :wink: I suspect a shoulder shot will have a bit different affect, but the just-behind-the-shoulder shot is preferred for that reason, usually 2-3 spins and a dead yote. May be worse up close, though, memory has a habit of keeping those longer shots in mind and forgetting the close shots that I've read about! :oops: