Handi rifle failure poll

[Mac11700]

I am very curious and would like to here some of your Handi rifles failures.I would like to see if there is a correlation of combination of parts that seem to give the most lackluster performance or failures...By failures...I mean one where accuracy couldn't be attained with handloads or factory ammunition or where polishing didn't help at all or a failure to lock up properly and would pop open where refitting was needed or of excessive headspace or lateral or horizontal movement of the barrel when snapped in the receiver...The failure to eject is a very common malidy and soon to remedied by all new barrels being converted to extractors and I know this is prevalent on a-lot of rifles...same too as stripped out screws on the butt stock...so I'm not asking about them..

Thanks

Mac

[mt3030]

None of the above: IE; for me I've had your stated problems with all combos. I think the only difference between the Handis and Ultras is finish and stocks. The weak lock up, which I think prevents everything from returning to the same starting point for next shot, and which also allows lock-up with barrel and breach face not being square, is a large factor. Also the ability of the action to stretch/flex with each shot doesn't help either. Or the encountered over/under sized bores. NEF has been listening to us for quite a while. We complained about the triggers; they improved the factory triggers. We wanted a 7-08; they gave us a 7-08. We wanted a 7.62x39; they gave us a 7.62x39. We wanted a 35 Whelen; they gave us a 35 Whelen. They obviously want to correct problems. But I think it is the nature of the design that is the problem. And this is something I don't think they CAN fix. Not and still be filling the market share they have become so well known for. True, with lots of tinkering time and effort some can be improved. As someone in the past put it, "finshed in the field". For the owners that have the time and want to tinker, they are a dream come true. For others, who might want to spend their time shooting and hunting, they can be a nightmare. I'm still a Handi fan, and don't mean to be bashing them as a whole. I just think we need to acknowledge that some calibers will have issues, and love them for what they can offer. I just refuse to join the resident Handi Cheering Squad. These are the forum members that keep telling me and others that if we have performance issues, it must be something WE are doing wrong. How can that be, when we have such a extensive list of "Stickies" to help us do things right? I'll bet a large percentage of the Handi fans here would of given up long ago, if it had not been for experienced members like yourself being so generous with your time and knowledge. But they are what they are.

It's the design.

Wally

[mt3030]

Since I've had no luck getting my above post edited, I add here that we also have to remember that we complained about the weak ejectors; and they gave us the extractor.

Wally

[tscott]

More importantly for me would be opinions....
There are very Knowledgable folks who use this sight. Many don't own Handi's. Some clearly state their interest in shooting, without having to continually screw with their firearms.
My question to them would be: How would you feel, what would you do,
If you took your new rifle to the range, and upon fire, it broke open...?
There was a thread here some time ago. Seemed like a good 100 + well thought answers to inherent problems with Handi's... Seems like NEF's answer was to market cheap Chinese repeaters, that Sporting goods stores are now trying to throw at folks for 130 bucks....! You get what you pay for!!!!

[tom barthel]

Check all the stickies.   WHY are they NEEDED???
 
I have a lot of time and work invested in mine.  I'm not going to dump them but, don't look for me to buy another new nef product.  The only new products I may be interested in would be the new .223 barrel and or if offered a .338-08 or 06 barrel.  NEF NEEDS TO WAKE UP.  There are other companies out there offering good deals on very good rifles for just a little more.
 
Tom

[coop2564]

So far the add on barrels that they have done for me have had great accuracy and lockup well. The 243 superlight that I had bought originally has been my only problem it came from factory poorly fitted. If they would tighten up on QC and use harder steel I think a lot of our problems would go away.

[knight0334]

The only problem I ever had was:

My first shotgun, a NEF 12ga acquired in or about 1987-88.  The forearm lug kept breaking it's weld to the barrel.

I've owned or still own both NEF and H&R rifles/shotguns in these flavors over the years: 12ga, 20ga, .410, (2) 22 Hornet's, 30-30, 45-70, Buffalo Classic, .270, .223, 20ga slug.

Only the 12ga was there a problem of any sort.  It was a NEF receiver with an NEF barrel.

[bajabill]

I think the only difference between the Handis and Ultras is finish and stocks. The weak lock up, which I think prevents everything from returning to the same starting point for next shot, and which also allows lock-up with barrel and breach face not being square, is a large factor. Also the ability of the action to stretch/flex with each shot doesn't help either.

Wally

I echo these thoughts

[Norseman112]

Well when I got my first brand new  handi ultra .223 last year for CHRISTmas the rifle would break open every time she was fired. I sent it back and she works fine now.

To be fair I would have to say customer service was very good by H&R and the .223 is very accurate. I also a bought a .243 standard handi and that rifle has given me no problems at all and is very accurate as well.


John

[Mac11700]

These are the forum members that keep telling me and others that if we have performance issues, it must be something WE are doing wrong. How can that be, when we have such a extensive list of "Stickies" to help us do things right? I'll bet a large percentage of the Handi fans here would of given up long ago, if it had not been for experienced members like yourself being so generous with your time and knowledge. But they are what they are.

First...Thank You for your compliment...I'm just 1 of many that like to help...secondly....I do believe you and a few others actually have some problems...but...when dealing with as many first time buyers/shooters/reloaders...that come here...sometimes it is easier to give the same overall answers to everyone...hence the stickys at the top...and also why I deceided to make this poll...I'll explain the second to you..

My belief...thru observation and ownership of several different makes of Handis...is that there are fundamental changes between types of receivers...and the Lack of Q/C of the plain Handi rifle recievers...it is my belief that the Ultra's and Limited and most of the Buff Classsics and Target models are the better of them.How so you ask...simple...I've come to the conclusion by comparing as many different models when ever I can lay my hands on them and from my own.I have taken a feeler gauges and bore lites with me...and have looked at more than 50 different rifles...new and used over the last 6 months...and in 99.8% of the time...poor lock up and barrel fit were always on the plain Handi rifle..I have found 2 ultras that had really lousy lock up...not just your minor type of gap...but really bad....Also...I have miked the barrel lug pin on a bunch of them as well...and there was some difference there too...but  except for the 2 bad Ultra's...they were consistant...Is this any conclusive proof or concrete evidence...no...it's not...but it's a darned good hunch that so-far has been proving itself to be correct ...I agree with you that the design isn't the greatest...or strongest...but it is a good working design that is sufficent for what they are...inexpensive and for the most part dependable and accurate...hopefully others will take the time to post about there problems so we can get a better idea if my hunch might hold some merit to it...

Mac

[DanielWGriggs]

My biggest problem with the handi's I have is I don't get to shoot them enough. Not trying to be funny here let me explain.
I have been trying to work up a load for my .308 ultra I get a few loads worked up get to the range to shoot them and it's clean up day. So I help clean up and put new boards up at the 25 & 50 yd ranges burn the ash and trash then when it's time to finally shoot the bench is taken by gunny hog and his bench buddies. so I wait for another day, The van breaks down and paying for repairs is expensive so I wait to get back to the range. godzilla's mom dies and we make the trip to cleveland and will have to do so again soon, The weather turns off cold. What a year....any way I hope 06 is better I sure would like to iron out the load for the 308 and get my hunt planned and paid for...Thanks Both of my ultra's have had no problems with lock up. I own an old .58 H&R ML and it shoots great and  have never had a problem with lock up.

Bench rest shooters these aren't but they are more accurate than me most days.

[mt3030]

Mac:
Thank you for your insight on the hinge pins. I'll admit I've never gone to that point of looking for the QC problems. And it is really a shame that we find this type of QC issues in todays rifles. I first started working with H&R Toppers in 1970. I belonged to the Red River Rifle & Pistol Club, in Burkburnett, TX. We were a large group, with approx 40 - 50 members. We hosted at our range the Boy Scout Troops from Sheppard AFB and Wictha Falls, both while they were working on their Firearm Safety Merit Badges, and any time they wanted to just come shoot. The Toppers were very poplar, and we had many show up at the range in 30-30 and 357. (There probably were other cal also, I just didn't take notice because I had a 30-30 and 357.) Not once did we ever hear of a action springing open on firing, a stuck case or find one that would not group three into 2 inches @ 100yds. And, it seems we find the same performance in the current rifles of those calibers. That's why I feel these problems are somewhat caliber sensitive. What all of these cals have in common, besides the rim and tapered profile, is low pressure. That's why I will alway recommend a 30-30 over a 243, or 30-06 over a 308, if either will get the job done. Lower pressures. They may of improved the metals used in their manufacturing, but the design itself is a limiting factor.

I was sorry to hear of the 38-55 shooting loose. I know a lot of work went into the testing and developing the loads. I have never heard of anyone putting so many rounds thru a Handi action. I"ll bet NEF has never heard of it either. Will be interesting to see how the Handi's stand up to several seasons of p'dog shooting, because that is the only other place I can see that kind of use. I hope shooters will keep records. Good luck in your quest for answers. I'm sure you will share them with us and NEF.

Wally

[Mac11700]

Wally:

Here in St.Louis...the Conservation dept. recommends both the 223 and the 243 for first time shooters coming thru their shooting programs..They don't have issues with them..and if there were major problems with the line..it would show it rather quickly..

As Quickdtoo pointed out the problem may not be either the action or the barrels...it could well be whoever NEF has sub-letted the parts out to didn't do such a good job...and somehow the bad pins and springs got mixed in with all the good ones...

I have use the high pressure rounds for a while...and haven't shot one loose...yet...and since JPH has...it will be something monitored more frequently.I've read of all of his trials and tribulations in making it into a reliable shooter...and can feel sorry for him that his valient work was for naught...and it would be a shame if he left for that reason..

JPH...you have made quite a few friends here..and just because of your disenchantment with your 38-55 is no reason for you to leave....you don't have to have a high level of enthusiam for them to enjoy talking with your friends...do you?

Sometimes people have to learn when to make a stand...and others need to learn when no matter what you do it won't work correctly.From what I've read here and other places this seems to be the way most folks who have problems are...some want to cut and run at the first sign of trouble...others stay at it way past the time to call it a day and move on...all of it is a learning lesson..

Mac

[JPH45]

Mac, I'm pretty seriously considering sending the 38-55 back to NEF for repair. My reluctance is that I've little faith they can do any better job of than I can. I've ordered a 375 JDJ barrel, forearm, brass and dies (no more goodies for 2006 :cry: ) for my Encore. But trust me, this is a compromise too. The 375 JDJ barrel was $229.00 in stainless at Mid South Shooters Supply. The blue version was just $205.00, but I was beat to it. I really wanted a 375 Winchester barrel but this is a custom offering only and runs $380.00 + depending on maker.

The 375 JDJ has a capacity slightly over the 358 Winchester and just undeer the 35 Whelen. It operates at 42,000 psi. From a rifle length barrel full power loads will be within 150 fps or less of the Whelen. 'bout like a 358 Winchester. Look at 375 JDJ data and add 10% to the velocities.

But the question is how well will it down load? Most of my shooting is done at 1400 fps and less. While a large case can be loaded down, that does not mean it will shoot as well (efficiently) as a smaller capacity case. So I'm still in mixed feelings land. It would prolly help if I weren't so hung up on cast and would just shoot full power jacketed loads like most the rest of the shooting world does. But I love cast. And the 375 Win/38-55 is as close to perfect a cast bullet gun as one can get, though it would be a tough to discount the 357 Max.

I can't see me going anywhere. I've hung out here too long. You guys are under my skin. I'm just going to pour my money down another rathole  Just trying to figure out how I fit in around here with my present state of feeling toward NEF and Handi's in general. And understand, it'll take a lot of doing for that Encore to outright relpace my 38-55 and 357 Max. Those two rifles shoot and have fed me. The Encore is just a hope for better things. It has a high standard to meet, nothing says it will. A rifle that don't break ain't no good if it won't shoot. Time will tell, and be sure, ya'll will be the first to know.

By the way, my frames are all SB2 Handi's, I've no Ultras.

[Mac11700]

JPH...it is a good thing you aren't planning on doing a dissapearing act...it would tend to PO quite a few folks :wink:

Those are some serious ballastics...and I know what you mean on having to spend extra money to get what you want...heck...for what I have in my 26" 338-06...I could of had a Ruger #1...but then I would of had to go with a 338 Win Mag...not the more mild shoot A-Square...and even now I'm faced with spending a tidy some to get my 26" 270...My choices are get a bolt gun and rebarrel it...or get a Ruger#1...or send my 25-06 barrel into Wayne for 2/3-1/2 as much as going either above way...Do I think I'm foolish...nope...neither does my wife...we discussed my "wants" at length...and the cost factor is always the first thing that she brings up...being fiscally smart is one of her good traits...

If I had started out having major problems with a handi...I would be more inclined to tottally dismiss these rifles as being woefully crappy...but that isn't the case...I know just how accurate they can be...and I don't worry about spending the cost of an entire rifle on a custom barrel to get what I want...and save money in the long run even if it is on a Handi...I know my Handi 338-06 is a-lot more accurate than the 1 Weatherby Mark 5 in the same caliber I shot...Will my Handi ever be as strong as the Weatherby...nope...never...will it last as long...I don't really know...I can only hope it it will...and if it doesn't...then it can always be turned into something else...cause I'm not aout as much ..If your really wanting a 375...I would get one...I know it will cost significatnly more...but in the end   you'll be more pleased with what you have...and you can load it the way you want to...

Mac

[Nebraska Kelly]

I have to stand with Wally on this issue. Over the years the best handi rifles for me have been the 30-30 and the 22 hornet. Both the most accurate and the most consistant. Not a problem with the wandering zero like I have had with many many other handi's in other calibures. I still buy and use the higher pressure calibures but I have gotten more "bad" shooting guns in them than the lower intensity cartridges.  The moderator speaks of experience. This has been my actual real world experience. Also speaks of the ultra's generally giving better results. Mine sure as he!! did not.  Never could get that great looking 308 ultra to shoot. Never sure where it would hit the target or if it would. Same with one in 30-06 and 22-250.  I have had trouble with every heavy barreled or standard barreled 223 as well. Never quite getting what I thought I should get out of them. Always had the wandering zero problem too.  HOWEVER I now have one 223 ultralite that shoots fantastic. Does honest 3/4in groups using just about any ammo. LOVE IT.  That one is a keeper.  My stepfather has an lultralite in 243. I load for him. It shoots 1in to 1 1/2 inch groups easily and they stay on target and dont wander.  That rifle is a keeper. I just got a new 30-30 that feels loose as He11. I am shooting it in the morning. We will see if it does what I expect it to.  My way of dealing with the "poor performing" handi's is to trade them and try again. I have tried some of the tricks and tips on the sticky's. I must be doing it wrong because they dont seem to help. I still like the handi's. I like the lite weight and the slim feel in my hand. They carry nice. But If they dont shoot I dont keep them. As we all know "ONLY THE ACCURATE ONES ARE INTERESTING".  I do think quality control comes into play here. Seems to me if they can get some of them to shoot good right out of the box they could get most of them to shoot good.  Not the case right now. But I must admit I love to play with the handi's. The good the bad and the sometimes the very good. It is just plain FUN.  Nice job Wally on your posting. I must agree with your assesment. This is based on my personal experience over 20 years of playing off and on with these guns. My first was a Topper in 30-30 in 1983. It shot great. I was hooked from the start.
Nebraska Kelly