Sporter airgun problem areas?

[nomad]

There are, I think. some other potential problem areas that haven't been worked out:

The rule still requires an 'unaltered' factory sporter etc...

Based on that, here are a couple of possible speedbumps:
(I'm not fully up on these and I'm still researching the situation. Don't shoot me until we know what's what.)

There are some CO2 sporters out there that have been converted (altered) to bulk fill. AFAIK those will be useable only in Open.

There are some pcp sporters that are factory unregulated and that have been after-market regulated. (AA400s?) Those are 'altered' and won't fly.

And a clarification:

The new Walther Hunter is shown in all the Walther ads (that I've seen) with the short air tube -- but the US importer is apparently making it available with any tube requested. According to this morning's conversation with GC, NRA will accept as legal any 300 Hunter with an OEM Walther tube, short or long, since that's the way the importer is delivering it and it's readily available to all in that configuration.

Unless you own one of the affected rifles, you probably don't care about these things but the match directors are going to have to have this information to make the calls that will probably come up. (I suspect that the larger matches should be 'interesting' as all this shakes out.)

[Slowstdy]

"The rule still requires an 'unaltered' factory sporter etc... "

"Based on that, here are a couple of possible speedbumps:"

Hi Nomad.
How about Options? The Walther LG300 has a number of factory options that you can purchase for, or with the gun. Not just the air cylinders.
The LG300 Hunter is just an extension to the LG300 10 meter gun range, were options are normal.

In Europe speedbumps are called “sleeping police men”!!!

Cheers, Dave C

[nomad]

Dave,

What options are we talking about that are specific to the Hunter?

[scorlett]

I don't think many of these have actually be regulated, they have just had their power reduced by changing the porting. (A feature now added to the production rifles by the factory...)

Sam

[scorlett]

An area I feel that has never been addressed adequately is the power output of the Open and now especially the Sporter air rifles. Unless I’ve missed something, the only thing regulating this now is the match director’s prerogative to decide that a rifle is causing “target damage” and therefore will not be allowed.

Several of the .22 caliber “traditional hunter” styled PCP air rifles produced in the last few years shoot extremely accurately with power in the 30-40 foot pound range. In windy conditions these would be an obvious advantage. I’ve been interested in owning a rifle of this type since they shoot so well in our Texas conditions, but since most of my shooting is related to silhouette, I didn’t want to have something I wouldn’t be able to use at the range.

How does a fellow know what’s too much before he goes to a match. He might enjoy his rifle for plinking and hunting, can he shoot silhouette with it too? I’ve heard of places where higher powered air rifles are shot routinely. But if a person goes to another location, will they be allowed?

Is 30 ft-lb too much, or 20, or 25, or 18? A couple of years ago or so, I shot in a state match beside a fellow shooting such a rifle. Other than my animals shaking a bit when his pellet hit the back stop, it didn’t bother me. It does seem like a shame to have to disqualify a fellow that has traveled to a big match, if he just wanted to shoot what he had.

I’d like to see some standard set, similar to the air rifle field target rule of 20 ft-lb muzzle energy. I don’t know that that is the right level, but something black and white so folks could know where they stand before they go to a match.

[nomad]

Sam.

IMO the competitor has to assume responsibility for bringing a legal rifle. If it tears up targets -- beyond what we expect to see in the way of normal wear and tear -- he's out. That's something that the shooter should test on his own time...and with his own targets. It's not something he should test during a match, at the risk of inconveniencing everyone else.

When anyone ventures beyond the limits of what's already established, he should realize that he's on his own. If a shooter is trying to gain an advantage by hot rodding and his equipment gets DQ'd for target damage it's his own fault.

We can take this one pretty far afield. I'd like to stay with sporter since, what I'm really trying to do is determine probable/possible problems that the new sporter rule will bring out. We can't solve every weakness in airgun silhouette right here, right now; and the target damage thing has already been pretty well hashed in Open class...

[Hornetx60]

From talking with Greg Connors what he said really keeps it simple. As long as it is a factory option that fits without being altered it can be used. Now that might leave the door open to something wild I guess but remember it truely is the shooter not the gun that knocks down the targets.

[K2]

The real interesting thing to do will be to track the number of people participating in the new sporter class for a few years.  When those numbers decline will anyone be willing to admit the mistake made by allowing open guns into the sporter game?  The scores will go up slightly on average because the PCP's are easier to shoot, but you will most likely see a decline in interest.    

Sam.

IMO the competitor has to assume responsibility for bringing a legal rifle. If it tears up targets -- beyond what we expect to see in the way of normal wear and tear -- he's out. That's something that the shooter should test on his own time...and with his own targets. It's not something he should test during a match, at the risk of inconveniencing everyone else.

When anyone ventures beyond the limits of what's already established, he should realize that he's on his own. If a shooter is trying to gain an advantage by hot rodding and his equipment gets DQ'd for target damage it's his own fault.

We can take this one pretty far afield. I'd like to stay with sporter since, what I'm really trying to do is determine probable/possible problems that the new sporter rule will bring out. We can't solve every weakness in airgun silhouette right here, right now; and the target damage thing has already been pretty well hashed in Open class...

[dave imas]

One thing that has become apparent to me over the last many years is that, despite its best effort, the NRA has yet to be able to kill Silhouette.  They have certainly pissed countless shooters off and most assuredly driven more than a couple to take up tennis or golf.  They have done next to nothing to drive up participation and far more than a little to diminish our ranks but, so far, keeping in mind that all sports have cycles of participation, we have been able to hang in there.  We had similar vehement discussion (actually far worse and destructive discussion) regarding the hunter rules... similar projections of doom...  but we are still shooting.  I think this will too will pass.
dave imas

[nomad]

Hornet,

You're right, that leaves the door open for some pretty wild sporters.
In light of that, I've decided that, at my matches, I'm going to accept as sporters anything that is composed of unaltered factory parts in any configuration -- as long as the competitor calls it a 'sporter'.

Ought to be interesting to see how it shakes out...

I don't agree with your contention about it being 'only the shooter'...
If you really believe that "the gun doesn't matter, it's only the shooter", are you prepared to compete in sb or hp hunting rifle with a mass-produced factory hunter while allowing the other shooters in your classification to shoot their race-gun standard rifles? (Or to shoot a target airgun against full open rifles?)

The shooter is certainly the single most important part of the silhouette  equation but, given equivalent/identical skill levels and the same conditions on the line, the equipment is a deciding factor. (In anything other than Open classes, the only way to really determine the best shooter is to ensure, by rule, that the equipment is as similar as possible.)

If that weren't the case, the people at the top of the board at each match would all be using inexpensive factory gear -- unless they just like spending money for no reason -- but that isn't what I see when I look at what they bring to the line. What level equipment are you shooting? Why?

[Tony Tello]

Dave, I beg to differ with your opinion of the NRA trying to kill Silhouette.  It is my firm belief that the NRA and a few state associations are the only forces driving silhouette-shooting sports.  I have seen several state associations like Nevada, New Mexico and Oregon among others drop their support silhouette and in short order the sport virtually disappeared in those states.  

Handgun silhouette shooters have IHMSA and NRA, when shooters get upset with one association they have the other to fall back but us rifle shooters do not have that luxury.  

The best thing we can do to improve the sport in my opinion is instead of just complaining on how bad a job they do and the terrible decisions they make is to get involved with your own state association and also get in touch with members of the NRA’s Silhouette Committee to let them know how you feel about the issues that are bothering you.

[Hornetx60]

Nomad, Well lets see I made master with a box stock Tikka white tail. Is that basic enough for you! I shoot it because I like it. It isn't the most well fitting gun but it is accurate and the trigger is ok. I shoot it in Both classes ALSO. I haven't found reason yet to build a Standard rifle because in high power I like shooting the lighter guns.  I plan on buying a Sako light weight as a standard gun which I could use in either class.
 In small bore I have always used Anschutz rifles of one type or another. In this again I made master with stock guns in little time. 3 months I think in hunter, took a bit longer in Standard.  But that really doesn't matter. All that means is I practiced my butt of to learn how to get it right. I have had them in many different stocks since then to find what I thought fit me right. But I now have my Hunter in a Mark Pharr stock and will probably end up using this gun both ways because here, as in high power, for some reason I have yet to figure out why, I shoot the Hunters better than the Standard Guns.  In Air I shoot 2 LG 100 Steyr's , a 10m for Target and a  AZ modified for Open. I use the open gun for a little bit of field target also, but I actually shoot the slower 10 meter gun the same or better at every match. Just today I received the LG 300 Walther and I plan on using it in Sporter and in Open.
About the shooters, Every one has the same ability to shoot the top equipment just as I choose to come to the line with a Hunter gun in the standard category. I know that I am handicapping myself by doing so. But that is a decision that I have made because I know that I can shoot it well enough to win with it. What ever reason a person hasfor their choice of gun is his or her own reason but don't use it as an excuse. Just as they all have the right to buy a PCP gun to use in the sporter class. I choose not to handicap myself in that class so I will use the Walther. I am well with in the rules to use this gun as is anyone else. Now understand me I liked the seperation of the air rifle categories before the change in the rules. It had 3 distinct different classes. But the committe for whatever their reasons decide to change the rule. Therefore I have decided that I would rather shoot a PCP than a springer and I don't care if I ever own a spring gun.
You say shooters of equal ability...Well lets just say shooters of equal class., because that is about as close as you can get a group. So you line up the Masters and give them all the same box stock guns and scopes and let them sight them in. I would bet that their finish scores would be within a point of their normal scores. Because after a certain point in any sport the game becomes 95% mental not about the toys. The toys just make things comfortable because they are of better quality and last longer.How many AA and AAA shooters do you know that have tricked out  standard or even Hunters that just can't make it out of AAA. There are a bunch of them.

[nomad]

Hornet,

How fast you made master -- or whether it's possible to shoot master scores with basic equipment -- doesn't really matter.  (We all know that that can be done. Whether it's possible to win at the top -- to really be competitive in today's environment -- without using the best possible equipment is yet to be seen. Things aren't the same as they were when David Tubb won all the marbles in hp with a 'factory' 700. If you start consistently WINNING against national level competition with that Tikka, I'll be among the first to offer congratulations.) More important, it doesn't mean much in the context of keeping the rules consistent for everyone and avoiding the problems that alienate competitors and cause trouble for match directors.

On the one hand you're telling us that you're deliberately choosing to handicap yourself ("I know that I am handicapping myself by doing so.") and on the other hand you're telling us that that handicap doesn't exist -- that equipment isn't important, it's all the shooter.

That's driving down both sides of the road...
 
(And let's be honest -- you're only taking that 'handicap' in selected areas. You say yourself that you shoot the hunter better than you do standard so that's really not a handicap to you...otherwise, you're using the very best that can be bought. And you're buying and using it because you know that that's what it takes to be competitive.)

Equipment does make a difference. All else equal, it can be the deciding difference; and the rules are emplaced so that no one uses that difference to his advantage. It's probably not possible to fully level the playing field but the effort needs to be made -- and it needs to be obvious to everyone competing that it IS being made.

I don't particularly care what equipment is used -- as long as it's legal -- but I do care that alienating people through the conflicts that arise from ill-defined rules and poor rule enforcement hurts the sport.

There were NRA national championships in airgun silhouette a number of years ago. Then the "I'll figure a way around the rules!" types created so many protests and so much animosity that those matches were dropped. (It's my understanding that the arguments reached the point of verging on legal actions.) Until recently -- through the efforts of Motl, McLemore and a few others -- there was never interest at the top in reinstatement. It would be a shame to see something like this poorly thought out rule change bring back the animosity that could negate all that effort.

It'll be interesting to see how this all shakes out. As David says, I may be (I'm beginning to think that I am!) chasing mice nuts...

[Hornetx60]

Nomad My point is everyone has the right to choose whatever gun they want within the rules. Lets use Air Sporter. Whether a shooter chooses a Walther Hunter or  TX 200 That is that persons choice. But my point is don't come back later saying I couldn't be competitive and use their gun as an excuse when the very same gun has already been used to shoot high scores.  No matter the sport there is always going to be people unhappy about spending more money. for better equipment. I long ago just accepted this as a fact of competition. Nobody is forcing anyone to pay 1500 for a gun but on the same note please don't try to use this as an excuse for poor results with a different gun that has been proven successful in other hands.

[Turkey Popper]

Nomad,

I would like to share my thoughts on the change in the rules for sporter air rifle.

•   I have a problem with rejection of an AA S400E (modified) as a sporter air rifle. A reasonable person would look at this rifle and call it a sporter even with the modification previously discussed.  The modification in question consists of a drilled and tapped hole in the firing valve body.  A tapered pipe plug is inserted in the hole and is used to vary the volume of air that is in the valve body (please note that this is not a regulator).  I  (and a number of other shooters) have purchased one of these rifles (to shoot in open class) and were told that we had to have this modification made to our rifles to be able to shoot the rifle in silhouette competition.  The reason given was that the muzzle velocity of this rifle (as from the factory) was to fast and would result in target damage.  This target damage would get us disqualified from a match.  Also, it should be noted that this exact modification was standard on the S300 (preceded the S400) and the predecessor of the S400 has a similar modification.  

•   I also have a problem with the Walther Sporter air rifle being allowed in this class.  We all know that this is nothing more than an open class air rifle with sling swivels.  

•   I don’t buy the argument that we can’t go back to having the spring gun as the sporter rifle.  The excuse that a few people have bought the Walther rifle does not pass muster.  I am not in the inner loop on air rifle competition but I still knew that this rule change was very controversial when it first came out.  The word I heard was that many local match directors were planning to have local rules that only allowed spring guns (in sporter class) until the NRA rule book could be changed.  Anyone that would run out and buy one of the Walther rifles (considering the controversy) should have known that they were taking a chance on that purchase.

There are a great many more folks that bought spring guns when that long standing rule was in place.  My guess is that there is more money tied up in spring guns (used for competition) than there are in the Walther race guns.  At least those folks with the Walthers can shoot them in the open class.  Our spring guns are now of no value as a competitive rifle.  

•   I think there needs to be changes made to the process for changing the rules.  The NRA committee should not be allowed to approve any rule changes.  All rule changes should either be approved by the match directors (by vote) or by the shooters (thought the match directors as our representatives).  With the electronic systems that we now have, this should be very easy to do.  The NRA committee should be limited to proposing possible rule changes and handling the administrative duties involved with implementing and administering these changes.

I hope that others will comment on this matter as well and that the majority will ultimately rule.  

Best regards,

John B. Stokes

[Aus]

As I said before (in another post) we go around the controversy (in Australia) by having just one class for air rifle.  One in all in.  Yes we have had a number of people upset about “race” guns.  What is happening out here is that there are more and more pre-charged guns at ever shoot.  My argument has been as stated by Nomad – as long as it’s legal it’s OK.  I think to shoot Silhouette successfully takes a great deal of skill; having said that I’d much rather be using the most accurate (best) rifle  - that’s legal – that I can get my hands on.  If you look at rimfire and centrefire the same thing is happening to a lesser degree.  Standard rifles are becoming much more accurate that’s part of the reason that a hunter rimfire can be shot in heavy gun successfully; there are a lot of people doing that out here.   I’m relatively new to the sport so maybe I’ve got it wrong.  I’d be interested to find out what other shooters from Australia think.

[nomad]

John

Ref the modified 400 -- the rule says 'unaltered' and that's pretty much what a match director has to live with when accepting/rejecting a rifle. IMO anything that changes the performance of the rifle is unacceptable. It's like being a 'little bit pregnant' ... it doesn't fly.

I agree with you about the 300 Hunter being an open rifle with a different name but it makes the rule. As a match director, that means that I have to accept it. (There were a number of us who planned to write exceptions into our programs that would have rejected these rifles. [That's a legal possibility under NRA guidelines.] The problem was that not everyone held ranks and we decided that it was unfair of us to limit our shooters to the old rule while people in other areas were setting records with the new stuff. AFAIK, all match directors are now accepting the PCP sporters.)

If we return to the old rule, the guys with the new guns are out about $1500. If we don't, the guys with springers can still compete but they're sledding uphill. No matter how you approach it, somebody gets clobbered.
I don't have a solution for fixing screw-ups like this one.

I have proposals in the works for the next committee meeting that would:

1. Except for safety issues, require issuance of a Notice Of Proposed Rule Making with an attendant commentary period before any changes could be made in rules.
2. Require anyone proposing a rule change to show current participation in the affected discipline (and disallow any consideration of change proposals -- again, excepting safety issues -- made by those not currently involved in the sport).
3. Mandate that the committee query match directors about rule changes when no committee member is active in and knowledgeable about the affected discipline.
I think that all of these suggestions are reasonable, worthwhile and helpful.
I also expect than none of them will be accepted. Wanna bet?

[stsbuyer]

Ernie,

I understand that the rules say unaltered, but the modification to the rifle is now  standard on all current production models delivered. If we can't accept the older models even when the factory makes the same change then we better be looking for more than just power mods. Who is going to determine which ones were done at the factory or by a third party? Who is going to be the  expert that knows all models, and are we going to take every gun apart to prove that there are no mods? How about we take the gun out of the stock and see if anyone added weight, just because we can't see it does not mean it is as it came from the factory. I wish I knew the answers to all the question but I don't. But when we disqualify a $500 to $600 gun, but allow the $1500 gun something is wrong. Just because the weights for the LG300 Dominator will work on the hunter, why are they legal? Is there a catalog that says the weight is a factory option for the LG300 hunter or are we just making that assumtion? I personally will allow the AA400 series air rifle at any competition if I am in charge inspection.

Best regards,

Paul Freeman

[nomad]

Paul

If it's now factory and the factory version is the SAME,  then it's OK with me -- but I would, if running tech, want to see either a factory version for comparison or a catalog showing it so that, in the event of a protest, we'd know where everyone stood. AFAIK, in this situation, the accepted standard is that the burden of proof is on the shooter.

One problem with the airguns is that there are so many variations that anyone who isn't studying them seriously is at sea. (I keep up -- sorta -- but I'm not really a rabid fan and wouldn't involve myself with them much at all if it weren't for the fact that I see them as becoming more needed as space to shoot 'real' guns is lost.)
We're all going to have to learn more about the gajillion current iterations of what's out there...just one more problem that this poorly thought-out rule change has created.

When GC told me that "Any factory part that fits without modification can be used on any rifle." I was really left guessing. The new hunter is even marked 'Dominator' on the action. I'm not sure that a full-out Dominator isn't OK under that interpretation...if it makes weight. I know that people are already dumping the wooden, Hunter buttplates and fitting other factory butt systems. Where's the cutoff?

The whole thing's a wormcan that we shouldn't have to deal with.

Frankly, if the rule stands after the next committee meeting -- and I expect that it will -- I might buy a Hunter myself. But I'm not putting out $1500 for one until I see what happens the next time the committee starts wheeling, dealing and dancing.

[Ronel]

My boss just bought a LG300 Dominator Walther and he wanted to know if they are allowed in Austalia?

"The rule still requires an 'unaltered' factory sporter etc... "

"Based on that, here are a couple of possible speedbumps:"

Hi Nomad.
How about Options? The Walther LG300 has a number of factory options that you can purchase for, or with the gun. Not just the air cylinders.
The LG300 Hunter is just an extension to the LG300 10 meter gun range, were options are normal.

In Europe speedbumps are called “sleeping police men”!!!

Cheers, Dave C