300 Savage and a Lyman 311466 bullet

[Turkeyfeather]

I would like to use this nice 150 grain, Loverin designed G/C bullet and run it up to higher velocities for hunting whitetails. I have a Lyman 450 bullet luber/sizer but have been considering a different twist.

In my nice Mdl 99 lever, 300 Savage, I would like to chase these 150 grain bullets out to say 2,300 fps if possible without loosing accuracy and having barrel leading problems. A good friend has tried other calibers at higher speeds using the Lee technology. Do you think either of the following recipies have a possibility of working at that speed?

1.  Ice water quench wheelweight bullets, size and gas check the bullets with a Lee push through sizer and then double coat the bullets with Lee liquid alox.

2.  Ice water quench wheelweight bullets, size, gas check, hard lube them with a 450 lube/sizer, and then double coat the bullets with Lee liquid alox.

I know people have talked of jacketed bullet speeds with cast bullets but I have shot cast w/w bullets for years but always kept the velocity to 1900-1950 fps to avoid problems.  What do you high speed experts think about this?

[Cat Whisperer]

Sidestepping the issues of accuracy and applicability of hard/soft alloy at the various velocities;  it would be easier to air cool, size using the 450 (when a bit softer than what they'll end up being), and then heat treat by heating in an oven and quench and then lubricate by either 450 or liquid.

[jhalcott]

turkey you might be doing harm to the ice quenched bullets. The hardness you gain from quenching may be removed by sizing. Have you slugged the bore you are going to shoot these thru? MAYBE you don't need to size them at all! What makes you think you NEED speed to kill a deer? Really ,the push thru sizer and liquid alox is what I've been doing with a 35 Whelen and a 308 lately.I use a different 30 cal. mold with a flatter point though (311041 at 170 gr).

[gutshot_again]

Turkey, I think there's a some things you should think about here.  First, no matter how you lube the bullet if it doesn't fit the bore you will get leading.  But you say you're already at 1900 to 1950 fps so I think you've already covered this angle.

Second, assume that you're shooting 1 & 1/2 inch groups.  By speeding up the bullet to 2300 fps and you start getting 2 to 2 1/2 inch groups - does it really matter on a deer sized target?  Better to give up some accuracy and gain terminal performance if that's the way it works out.

Third, if you make the bullets too hard with a round nose bullet you'll end up with a pencil sized hole through a deer that will go a long ways before it goes down.  Better to keep the alloy soft and hope for some expansion.

Fourth, if you want a hard bullet going fast that will perform on deer, consider a flat nose bullet.  Lee, Lyman, RCBS and Saeco all make flat nose bullets that depend on the flat meplat to make the hole and provide provide the terminal performance you're looking for.

With that said, I took one deer with a 35 Remington and Lyman's 358315 (205 grains, round nose, gas check) with an alloy of 1/2 WW's and 1/2 Linotype running full loads at around 2000 fps.  Worst performance on a deer that I've ever seen.  Was just pencil sized holes straight through the deer and it took a long time to go down.

Since then I've used Lyman's 358627 (220 grains, SWC, gas check) at about 1600 - 1650 fps, and RCBS 35-200-FN (210 grains, Flat nose, gas check) at about 1700 fps in a 35 Whelen.  Both were with air cooled WW's.  I couldn't ask for better performance.  The SWC is very deadly, but the FN does very well also.  The SWC's typically have a 1 to 1 1/2 inch hole clear through the deer, the FN's usually have a  1 inch hole right through the deer.

I've also used a custom mountain molds 9.3 (.366) mould and gotten excellent perfomance out of a 9.3x57.  This is a 300 grain bullet, flat meplat of .270, gas checked.  The deer just drop with a hole 1 to 1 1/2 inch clear through.  This was with air cooled WW's also.  Speed right around 1700 fps or so.

Bottom line, to take deer with a round nose cast bullet the alloy should be soft to hope for some expansion.  Expect to give up some accuracy and perhaps get a some leading.  The leading won't matter much with the few shots you'll take during deer season.  Or, get a flat nose mould where you can get make the alloy harder, keep your accuracy and get human kills.

[Turkeyfeather]

I appreciate the good information from everyone on this topic. I think I have ideas telling me to reconsider my thinking. This is fine because I have concentrated in the past of getting good accuracy to punch paper targets with cast bullets. I didn't have to be concerned with velocity just placement performance. Now focusing on hunting applications, I have some things to learn.

It appears I should perhaps persue a heavier round or flat nose bullet of say, 180 grains, keep the velocity down a little to achieve the best accuracy. By keeping the bullet weight up and the velocity a tad slower, I will achieve the same energy but not sacrafice much accuracy and keep leading to a minimum. Also, velocity is not everything in a hunting application and with a harder bullet the bullet weight retention may be better but the bullet expansion and energy absorbed by the body will be notably less.  

I appreciate the input on this. All other comments on this are certainly welecome.

[Steve P]

I have shot cast bullets in excess of 2000fps with no leading.  They are water dropped and sized .002 over (.310 for .308 bore) using Lyman Orange Magic lube.   No leading in my Contender barrels.  

Steve