Help...Shell Retainer, Winchester Model 12 ??

[long colt lawrence]

I've got a buddies Model 12 to fix and I'm having trouble figuring it out. The shell in the tube pops out into the reciever when fired. No pieces look broke and the only thing that appears to hold the shells in the magazine is a protrusion on the bolt and recoil allows them to slip past it. I've cold formed it to be a little sharper to make up for wear but something is not making sense....It seems to me that with the bolt closed, if the protrusion is large enough not to let one out, then you couldn't put one in with the slide forward and that is how he loads it. The part that pivots down to stop more than one shell from coming out seems to be working fine.  Am I making any sense? If somebody is chuckling over what I'm not seeing, I'd really appreciate a heads up.

thanks

LCL

[gunnut69]

On the parts blow up shown at the site below, what did you do to the bolt? The part number 29 retains the shells in the magazine. their released by the bolt.. Is that part there and complete? Does the gun ever feed shells from the mag?

 http://stevespages.com/ipb-winchester-12.html

[long colt lawrence]

Thanks for the reply gunnut69.  

When the slide is fully forward and gun is in battery, part 29 pivots toward the bottom of the reciever and and out of the way so no part of it touches the shell in the tube to retain it. The shell is being stopped by a litttle nub on the bolt but it is very sloppy. When the action is cycled the bolt goes backward hitting the curved area at the rear of part 29 causing it to pivot up and stop "the next" shell from coming out, allowing only the shell being held in by the bolt to cycle. I examined that part for evidence of fracture but don't see anything and the drawing shows that nothing seems to be missing.
I wonder what the odds are of my "local"(an hour away, isn't that sad) gunshop having one to look at.

[gunnut69]

I'll check out mine. It's been a long while.. I'll get back later.

[cntryboy1289]

Let me ask you this, you said when the gun is fired the round in the tube pops past the bolt, does it cause a jam or does it ride back when the bolt is racked rearward?  It is supposed to ride the nose of the bolt when the bolt moves back and ride up the carrier when it goes forward.  The secondary CS should be pushed down in the rear by the bolt which pushes it up in the front to catch the second round in the tube.  when the bolt comes closed and the secondary CS is pushed down in the front, the round in the tube pops out to the nose of the bolt and is caught and the gun is ready to cycle once again.  

Is yours doing this or is it allowing the round to pop past the bolt up underneath it?

Your friend is loading correctly.  The round will be sitting in front of the bottom lug of the bolt and you push the carrier down which should force the round back into the magazine tube but it will be free to be pushed out, so the round you are loading has to stay in front of it and the carrier should rise up to push the round down against the nub on the bottom of the bolt.

[cntryboy1289]

I pulled mine out of the safe and my carrier spring is gettting weak.  The carrier is what keeps the round forced down against the nub on the bottom of the bolt and what comes down and makes the round stay put on it when you load it.  Mine is letting rounds pop out when I load them in the tube, but it cycles them fine when the action is pushed back and forth.  I haven't fired it in years, but it sounds to me like yours is either doing like it is supposed to do or the carrier may need to be adjusted with a better spring like mine does.  Mine only lets the rounds pop out of the tube when I am loading them.  Other than that, it is working fine.  Recoil may very well allow the carrier to not ride up and hold the round onto the bolt, which should be cured by a replacement spring or you may need to TIG up the area of the carrier dog that operates it.  Hope this helps you with yours.

[long colt lawrence]

Ahhh Haaaa..... that make perfect sense and sounds like it could be the culprit.  Thanks cntryboy1289 for taking the trouble to dig yours out and examine it.  I probably won't get to it till mid week so I'll post again when I check it out (just in case you're curious).  

[long colt lawrence]

cntryboy1289 this post is for you!

yea well I couldn't wait till mid week knowin I might have an answer. I just got done workin on it and even though I haven't shot it yet, I feel pretty good about it. Aside from giving it a good cleaning that I know it hasn't seen in 20 yrs (what gunk!), the follower spring wasn't quite right and I put it back to where it should be. Functions smooth now. I never closely examined the trigger assembly, thinking that part was outside of the problem. Once again thanks alot.

LCL

[cntryboy1289]

Good to hear you got it back toworking right.  It gave me a chance to get the thing out and fondel it some more, so I was glad to have found your post.  Been a while since mine was fired, I may have to get the spring replaced, my carrier is bad sluggish.