Author Topic: 450 Mongo loads? (Read 1505 times)

BIGGOME · « **on:** January 02, 2006, 03:10:58 AM »

I was not aware that the 450 Mongo was a fairly common practice and I was wondering if anybody had any "pet" loads for 405 grain bullets in the 450 Mongo. I began using the 444 Marlin case expanded to 45 cal in my 45/410 Survivor quickly after disovering how poorly the 45 Colt rounds performed as well as the odd report they had with all the blow by caused by the long chamber. I have not experimented with bullet loads much as I use it more as a shotgun loaded with as much shot as a 3" hull will hold loaded over 14.5 grains of surplus WC-820 for snakes and close range (backyard) clays and the occasional charging beer can.

My experiments so far with HEAVY pistol powder loads with 255 grain cast bullets in the expanded 444 case were OK though I knew the bullet was still taking a beating from the blowby (much reduced) removing lube and the jump to the barrel. I knew I needed a bullet long enough to enter the barrel before leaving the case. After some quick measurements were taken I settled on the Lee 405 grain (.457 dia. 45/70 bullet) sized down to .452. I figured this would be the lightest bullet that would seal the chamber.

Being a SB-1 (shotgun) receiver I figured I had better be very careful as to not get out of hand with the pressures so I decided to use a relatively fast rifle powder rather than a slow pistol powder as well as one that was rather forgiving when it comes to low pressure and low load densisities. I chose IMR-4198 from my stocks and after a bit of "head scratching" and "forehead rubbing" I decided that 20 grains was a good starting point with 1000 fps being the goal.

A trip to the backyard with the chrono and my guesstimated load proved I wasn't too far off, it went 998! The only problem was that when I removed the case and looked down the bore, it was full of thick, black smoke and it had a lot of unburned powder kernels. I tried a few more of the same load but added an overpowder wad with no improvement. I tried upping the powder charge a couple of grains and it that didn't help. I don't want to keep upping the charge and then get to the point where it finally does all ignite and get too much pressure for the weaker than rifle action.

Any suggestions?

By the way, using the bead front and a mark on the receiver as rifle sights it shot way too high. I installed a TRUGLO GLO-DOT II, snap on fiber optic sight. It sits higher than the bead and works well in almost no light conditions. The sight intended for a 20 gauge is required for the larger OD of the Survivor barrel.

Paul

knight0334 · « **Reply #1 on:** January 02, 2006, 04:03:04 AM »

The 450 Mongo, being a 444 fireformed to 45 cal, is supposed to be .451/.452 caliber. Not .458 cal of the 45-70 and other 45cal rifle cartridges.

I have a feeling the 405gr slugs you're refering to are .458 cal, which in my opinion, are too large in diameter for the .452 bored 45/410.

Heres a few links that you might find helpful.

http://members.tripod.com/~cdk357/mongo.html
http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=4711
http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=11662

I personally would started with very light .444 Marlin loads with bullet weights matching the 444 Marlins, just with .452 cal slugs.. ...then move up slowly with powder and/or bullet weights.

I'm not sure of the strength of the .45/410 Handi, if its the SB2 and its barrel steel can handle the pressures of the full .444 loads.

knight0334 · « **Reply #2 on:** January 02, 2006, 04:07:18 AM »

Must add after rereading your post(just woke up):

I wouldn't push your rifle too much farther then standard .45 LC loads with that SB1 receiver.

For the unburnt powder, try a "magnum" primer. The hotter spark might help burn it all. You might experience a slight increase in pressures as you do.

Before going any farther, I'd pick up an SB2 receiver and fit your barrel to it. There would be less to worry about and more room to play with hotter loads.

BIGGOME · « **Reply #3 on:** January 02, 2006, 05:03:06 AM »

If I were to get another receiver then I would just get a complete 45/70 if I wanted full power loads. Recoil is getting noticeable in this light gun without any recoil pad so performance increases will be small at best with this setup.

Charges of IMR-4198 of as much as 30 grains with a 405 grain bullet are listed as safe for use in 1873 Springfield 45/70's with pressures of only 13,500 C.U.P (same as standard 45 Colt pressures) and starting loads of 21.5 grains only having a pressure of 6,800 C.U.P, with 444 and 45/70 case capacities similar, I am well within the design limits of a SB-1 receiver right now and I am not going to push it any harder than shotgun pressures. Shotgun loads usually have a maximum limit of 11,000 L.U.P.

I just want it to burn cleanly (or at least much cleaner) and perform well enough to serve as a close range deer gun if nessasary.

Paul

quickdtoo · « **Reply #4 on:** January 02, 2006, 06:35:16 AM »

Paul, have you tried a heavy crimp yet?? XMP5744 might be a good powder to try, it works great with small charges in large cases, I use it in my .45-120 BC with excellent results at about 50% load density.

mitchell · « **Reply #5 on:** January 02, 2006, 06:40:48 AM »

a Mongo load?

? is that what was on my wind shield this mourning???

De41mag · « **Reply #6 on:** January 02, 2006, 09:48:58 AM »

:-D :-D :-D :shock:

Mitchell... Now that was a good one.

Dennis

JPH45 · « **Reply #7 on:** January 02, 2006, 11:53:58 AM »

Give twelve grains of Blue Dot a spin. Ten of Unique. If Unique does well give Universal Clays a spin. Same burning rate but much better flowing than the flake. Your case has less capacity than the 45-70 (I figure you know this already) and staying to the low end of pistol charges for it should be alright.

You can crosscheck data with 410 loads, seeking to balance powder charge weight with payload weight, but I'd avoid H110/296, they don't do well in low density loading. 4227 is likely a good alternative.

That the 4198 is very dirty says the powder is not getting up to a good working pressure, and like you say, adding till it does could be the less prudent approach Faster powders are going to burn cleaner than slower one's will.

Have you considered a 452-454 300-350 grain bullet?

Interesting project, keep us posted. There has been lot's of interest in making the 45/410 work as a light 45 caliber rifle, you're the first to actually post that they have fired something. Keep up the good work. What twist rate is that barrel???

DPRinks · « **Reply #8 on:** January 02, 2006, 03:36:23 PM »

I have good results with 4227, 2400 and Herco in .45-70 with light bullets at low velocities, the 4198 would be quite a bit too slow for what you are trying to do.
I, personally, would try 9-11 grs of Herco, a bit faster than Unique-Universal and not quite as fast as 2400.

Rogmatt · « **Reply #9 on:** January 02, 2006, 04:04:19 PM »

Mongo only pawn, in game of life!!

cpj · « **Reply #10 on:** January 02, 2006, 04:19:40 PM »

Quote from: Rogmatt

Mongo only pawn, in game of life!!

:-D :-D :-D

Nicely done my friend , nicely done.

chrsm · « **Reply #11 on:** January 04, 2006, 02:24:02 AM »

410 brass trimmed down, sold at cabelas
same 45 colt bullets
12 grains green dot max
just a idea !
you can have a full case no blow bye and a bullet thats not oversized!

FirstFreedom · « **Reply #12 on:** January 04, 2006, 01:45:54 PM »

What sizing die do you use? How do you expand the case mouth to accept the .451/452 bullets?

gino · « **Reply #13 on:** January 05, 2006, 04:42:28 AM »

Quote from: FirstFreedom

What sizing die do you use? How do you expand the case mouth to accept the .451/452 bullets?

FWIW I bought some MagTech brass .410 shells from Midway. At the case mouth they measure .440 ID. Of course that's unfired & unresized.
gino

BIGGOME · « **Reply #14 on:** January 07, 2006, 04:42:35 PM »

Still no experienced "Mongo loaders" yet? I thought for sure that someone here had been down this same path before. Though full length brass would be nice and allow me to use lighter bullets, I now have 50 pieces of "Mongo" brass and a 405 grain bullet mold I have no other use for so I will proceed with what I have.

Some rather quick powders were suggested by others and I would like to stay with as slow a powder as will burn relatively clean at my modest pressure levels so I will now try my second choice of powder which is 2400. Though I have some of all of the "Dots" as well as Herco, 2400 is the slowest and the most flexible of the easy to light Alliant powders and is very forgiving as far as rapid pressure rises are concerned. The only reason I started out with IMR-4198 was that it was listed for use in low pressure 45/70 loads, I guess it did turn out to be somewhat cleaner than black powder.

To the person whom asked what bullet and case sizing dies I use; for the bullets I use a .452 Lee sizing die in a Rock Chucker press and have to PUSH LIKE HELL after tumble lubeing them to size them down (I broke my bench after the first four or five). As for the cases, I neck size them in 45 Colt dies, I remove the primers with a punch from a Lee Loader.

Paul

KLA · « **Reply #15 on:** January 08, 2006, 10:00:51 AM »

Just curious as to the fps you were getting with the 45 LC and the long chamber? I've heard you get about a 200 fps increase from pistol ammo when you go from a pistol barrel to a longer rifle barrel, but hadn't considered the blow-by situation.

Robert · « **Reply #16 on:** January 08, 2006, 10:24:41 AM »

I can't resist any longer...I was trying some of these loads in my Contender a few years ago....started with 444 Marlin brass, used 45 Colt die to just bell the mouth out to .452. I used published data for old 45-70 Trapdoor rifles...tends to be on the light side, but great for fooling around. I loaded these with cheap home-cast bullets.
I got to thinking that I could use these in my .410 NEF shotgun barrel....did try a few, but I became concerned that this not being a 45/.410 barrel....just a .410.....I do beleive that .410 slugs are smaller diameter than my .452 slugs and that I could be doing something a little risky. Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

Maybe for this purpose in NEF smoothebore shotgun barrels, the shells should not be necked out to .452....but use the same data with dum-dums intended for 44 cal?
I thought that these were extremely interesting experiments at the time...it is nice to see renewed interest in the Mongo.....I might have to give it another whirl. :wink:

knight0334 · « **Reply #17 on:** January 08, 2006, 03:49:52 PM »

I wouldn't do that with a .410 barrel. Figuring .410 is just that, .410". And trying to force a .452" bullet down that? no way! plus figure in the choke.. bad bad idea in my opinion..

BIGGOME · « **Reply #18 on:** January 09, 2006, 02:47:50 PM »

KLA, I don't remember running any of the 45 Colt rounds over the chrono. Since they were loaded for my 3.75" Vaquero using 8.8 grains of AA Solo 1000 under a 255 grain cast bullet for a pleasant shooting 900 fps. With this very fast powder I doubt there was any velocity gain (probably a major loss) shooting them in the Survivor with the pressure leak. The report sounded so bad (like a firecracker in a can) I didn't shoot many before deciding there must be a better way to go.

In typical pistol/revolver barrel lengths the standard rule of thumb is a 100 fps change for every 1" change in length. I don't know how true this is but I recently shot some older factory Remington 125 grain .357 Magnum ammo which did about 1500 fps out of my 6.5" Blackhawk, in my 16" Rossi, the same ammo did a whopping 2100 fps! My much hotter than "plinker level" 158 grain cast handloads did 1450 fps out of the BH and 1750 fps out of the Rossi using slow WC-820 powder. That Remington ammo is loaded with a lot of really slow powder, I need to see what it does out of either my 2.25" or 3.125" SP-101, should be way way down from the Blackhawk's velocity.

The burning rate of the powder will ultimately determine the optimum barrel length for max velocity. Most of my pistol loading is done using the fastest possible powder for the intended velocity which will not gain a lot of speed when fired from longer length barrels, blast and flash are kept to a minimum in snubbies as well as being clean and efficient.

Paul

BIGGOME · « **Reply #19 on:** January 21, 2006, 02:26:03 AM »

After a recent prowl in the reloading room I looked at my press set up for 45 Colt loading and realized I miss quoted the load I use for 45 Colt I mentioned in an earlier post. I use 6.6 grains (which is .88cc) not 8.8 grains of AA Solo 1000 with a 255 grain bullet for 900 fps out of a 3.75" barrel. Although 8.8 grains would be too stiff for my tastes, it would still be much less pressure than the heavier 44 Mag loads listed for that powder and safe in a Ruger strength 45 Colt revolver.

As we should all remember, never, I mean never, use any loading data you see without first researching it to see if it is at least reasonable lest some yoyo (like me) gets his numbers mixed up!

Just though I had better correct myself, sorry, I'll be more careful next time!

Paul