Author Topic: Remington 700 ML misfire (Read 2691 times)

Myerslake2005 · « **on:** January 10, 2006, 07:53:01 AM »

My father-in-law has a Remington 700 ML which he uses the large musket caps. He has had mutiple misfires this year including two at deer. He may go through several caps before it will go off. He has used two different containers of caps so it isn't a bad batch. He feels as if the firing mechanism isn't striking the primer hard enough. Has anyone had similar problems with this particular ML.

Thanks, Brent

sabotloader · « **Reply #1 on:** January 10, 2006, 09:21:54 AM »

Myerslake2005

Actually this is a very common problem for a Remington, but it is easily fixed also.

I have two Remington and I would not trade them for the world, but you do have to do the maintenance to keep them working.

Most often the problem is caused within the bolt, on occasion the nipple itself can be bad especially if it has been dry fired. The is a couple of things working against you: 1) the hammer spring that Remington uses is marginal - it is great when it is new but it does weaken with time. You can order a replacement from Remington, but it may come with the same marginal spring - I think 22lb maybe 24lb. 2) the inside of the bolt is terribly suseptable to blow back & rust. You need to physically dismantle the bolt and clean the mechanism. The hammer slides through an area in the bolt that easily become blocked with blowback and residue - even a heavy grease on a cold day will slow down the hammer. Remington has a small plastic bolt tool for the disassembly.

I have changed my springs and have suggested to several other to change their spring to a Wolff 28# or they even offer a 32# spring for the the Model 700 short bolt - Brownells has these springs in stock.

I also have switched my Rems over to 209's - the conversion kit available from Cabelas is by far the best - the Remington stock kit or the conversion kit leaves a lot to be desired.

Let me know if this works or if you need some additional help....

mike

sabotloader · « **Reply #2 on:** January 10, 2006, 09:24:43 AM »

Myerslake2005

Actually this is a very common problem for a Remington, but it is easily fixed also.

I have two Remington and I would not trade them for the world, but you do have to do the maintenance to keep them working.

Most often the problem is caused within the bolt, on occasion the nipple itself can be bad especially if it has been dry fired. The is a couple of things working against you: 1) the hammer spring that Remington uses is marginal - it is great when it is new but it does weaken with time. You can order a replacement from Remington, but it may come with the same marginal spring - I think 22lb maybe 24lb. 2) the inside of the bolt is terribly suseptable to blow back & rust. You need to physically dismantle the bolt and clean the mechanism. The hammer slides through an area in the bolt that easily become blocked with blowback and residue - even a heavy grease on a cold day will slow down the hammer. Remington has a small plastic bolt tool for the disassembly.

I have changed my springs and have suggested to several other to change their spring to a Wolff 28# or they even offer a 32# spring for the the Model 700 short bolt - Brownells has these springs in stock.

I also have switched my Rems over to 209's - the conversion kit available from Cabelas is by far the best - the Remington stock kit or the conversion kit leaves a lot to be desired.

Let me know if this works or if you need some additional help....

mike

deerslayer41 · « **Reply #3 on:** January 10, 2006, 01:38:51 PM »

I have had the very same thing happen to myself with my Model 700ML.
My misfires were caused by:

1. Too much grease in the bolt assembly that slowed the striker down at 10-20 deg F which resulted in three misfires at 3 different deer on the same day.

2. A light coating of rust after I degreased the bolt so that problem #1 wouldn't happen again on one deer.

Four misfires in two years. The rifle would fire the second time the trigger was pulled if the bolt was cycled to cock the firing mechanism, two of the four deer waited around too long and ended up in the freezer.
I now have the 209 conversion kit from Cabelas ($40), waiting to install as I picked it up after Christmas.

plannerman · « **Reply #4 on:** January 10, 2006, 01:51:36 PM »

Follow Sabotloader's advice, spend some time cleaning up the bolt/spring. Hunted in -13 weather a few years ago and pulled the trigger-worked the bolt 13 times before the gun fired. Needless to say the deer were moving at that point.

Stan M. · « **Reply #5 on:** January 12, 2006, 04:05:59 PM »

The bolt is most likely your problem, as the others have already stated. Clean and polish it good! Replace the spring if you think that is needed, it wouldn't hurt. I found out the hard way. I missed out on a nice buck because of a rusted bolt, the very first time out with the rifle. Did not clean it good from all the range sessions before the season.
Good luck,
Stan

varmit_master · « **Reply #6 on:** January 12, 2006, 08:37:20 PM »

I am with sabotloader on this had the same thing go wrong on mine. And i wouldnt traded my off it is the best grouping ML i have had . VM

mhwwlmc · « **Reply #7 on:** January 17, 2006, 07:35:33 AM »

It definitely is the Bolt Assembly. I bet he has never taken it apart. He will have to take it apart and polish up all of the parts. Most people don't know that you have to disassemble that Bolt Assembly and clean it every time you fire that Rifle. As long as you keep up with it, it is not a big deal to take it apart and clean it up. I have the Stainless Steel model, and I find it best to just run the Bolt "Dry" in Cold weather. I am very happy with my Remington 700 MLS. I have had 2 of them and found them both to be very accurate.
Mike

samchap · « **Reply #8 on:** January 17, 2006, 05:30:27 PM »

sabotloader....."switched my Rems over to 209's "

What caps were you using before you switched. Were you using pellets or powder? And now that you've switched.....? Whats the real difference?

I have a Rem 700mls and have had slow ignition with #11 mag caps and pellets, of all kinds but never with any of the powders.

I'm interested in why you switched because I've heard that there is considerable blowback with the 209 primers.

I have the conversion kit from Rem and have noticed that the new spring is ~1/8" longer than the original in the bolt now. I like the idea of the 32# spring. Perhaps less blowback? I wonder. I'm going to order a couple for peace of mind.

sabotloader · « **Reply #9 on:** January 18, 2006, 05:09:40 AM »

samchap

Quote

What caps were you using before you switched. Were you using pellets or powder? And now that you've switched.....? Whats the real difference?

I was using #11 Mags caps with T7-2f loose powder - it really was performing OK, but I wanted a positive ignition in really cold temps. During our ML season here in Idaho I do have to switch back to #11 Mags. When I do I use Dynamit Nobles #1075 plus. Slow ignition with pellets is not uncommon it takes a lot of heat to get them started, the #1075 might help.

Quote

I'm interested in why you switched because I've heard that there is considerable blowback with the 209 primers.

If you use the Remington conversion there is considerable crud accumulation in the bolt area. The Cabelas conversion cuts that down considerably. I have fabricated a weather shroud from a 20 gauge shotgun shell and there is not enough blowback or heat to cause any problems with that. The spring that comes in the Cabelas kit is a #28 spring if I recall correctly. I am pretty sure I have a #32 in one Remington and a Cabelas spring in the other. The Cabelas conversion is made in Quebec, Cananda - I would highly recommend it vs the Rem conversion.

The 209 does give more reliable pellet ignition in all weather.

Give a shout if you have any other questions...

samchap · « **Reply #10 on:** January 20, 2006, 05:35:39 PM »

I checked in Brownell's under muzzleloaders and could not locate the #32 spring. Is it made from the other spring stock they carry or is it specific for Rem 700 bolt?

SL...Do you know if the Rem 700 nipple that comes with the rifle when bought is a standard 1/4-28 nipple like those available through DGW? I need to replace the one I have.

Stan M. · « **Reply #11 on:** January 21, 2006, 03:42:15 AM »

Samchap,
I know you had asked SL, but maybe this is what you are looking for.
Rem 700 Short bolt springs:
32# is part #969-634-032 Factory weight is shown in ()
http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/productdetail.aspx?p=16583&s=37356
The nipple is 1/4-28, but I am not sure what you mean by DGW.
Hope this helps,
Stan

samchap · « **Reply #12 on:** January 21, 2006, 04:21:31 AM »

Stan......thanks! I appreciate your effort. DWG = Dixie Gun Works

#32.......There is one for long bolt and short bolt. Which one for the Rem 700ml?

Stan M. · « **Reply #13 on:** January 21, 2006, 10:11:06 AM »

Quote

I have changed my springs and have suggested to several other to change their spring to a Wolff 28# or they even offer a 32# spring for the the Model 700 short bolt - Brownells has these springs in stock.

The 700ML based on the short action design. I feel that is what sabotloader used by reading his quote posted above. Also I think he suggests the 28# spring (969-634-028) but says they even offer a 32# spring. A stock spring is 24#.
A friend of mine had his stock 700ML break two Rem. percussion cap nipples. These nipples were not old. The rifle was fairly new as well. He sent it back to Rem. for repair and never experienced that problem again. We used a 1/4 -28 tap to get the remnant of the nipple out. A broken nipple is a bad deal out in the woods. I don't know if a 32# would be too much for a nipple or not. Something to think about.
I try to store my 700ML in the uncocked or the fired position so that the spring is not compressed for months at a time. My spring is the spring that came in my conversion kit and I may switch it out if I start to have problems. I also use the Cabela's 209 conversion kit that is made in Canada. XT-21-4451 in the new 2006 Shooting Catalog.
When my bolt rusted on my rifle, I used very fine steal wool wrapped around a cleaning brush and saturated with oil to polish indside the bolt housing. I chucked the cleaning brush in a drill and spun it to polish the surface smooth.
Maybe sabotloader can tell you if his is truly 28# or not.
Take Care,
Stan

sabotloader · « **Reply #14 on:** January 21, 2006, 02:49:49 PM »

samchap,

Stan M. is correct - you are looking for a spring for a Model 700 short action. The same spring as used in your ML. I have a #28 spring installed in my Remingtons right now but I do have a #32 on hand, have not needed it yet.

And again Stan M. is correct do store your rifle with the hammer released and against the nipple. When you close the bolt and with the safety off start to lower the bolt handle while pulling the trigger then complete lowering the bolt handle. You will feel the hammer drop and the bolt handle will be pushed downward. This is a whole lot better than dry firing it.

You are a little better off getting true Remington nipples versus others because of the wat the nipple seat into the breechplug and it is a 1/4-28.
Other nipples will work but they might be a little difficult to get tight or to get loose.

Myerslake2005 · « **Reply #15 on:** January 22, 2006, 06:38:19 AM »

Thanks for the information. I ordered the 28 and 32# springs for my father-in-law. He's afraid to tear the bolt down to clean it because he was afraid there would be small springs in it and wouldn't be able to get it back together again. Once I get the new springs we'll tear it down together and get it cleaned and put back together.

sabotloader · « **Reply #16 on:** January 22, 2006, 02:15:23 PM »

Myerslake2005,

Nope no small springs unless you call the spring steel pin.

It really is not a real difficult job, if you have a remington bolt tool it is really easy if you don't you can still get the job done.

One of the more difficult things to do if you do not have the bolt tool, which you might want to get becuase it is useful to even clean the bolt. Without the bolt tool just put a washer in a vice - hook the bottom of the firing pin behind the washer and turn the bolt housing off. That will divide the bolt up into two pieces, the bolt housing and handle, and the striker, spring and housing. You will need a very small punch to punchout the spring steel pin that passes through the housing and through the firing pin (hammer). Once this is removed the firing pin can be unscrewed from the housing. This might be a problem if the the area is heavily rusted. When the hammer is screwed loose you have 4 parts, housing, pin, hammer, and spring. Then it is a matter of cleaning and putting everything back together. When you reasemble make sure the holes through the housing aligns very well with the holes in the hammer.

Give a shout if you need any help - might even be able to dig up some pictures with directions...

samchap · « **Reply #17 on:** January 23, 2006, 04:49:56 PM »

Stan...Sabotloader, thanks for all the info. I, like many Rem 700 ml owneres, experienced the sticking bolt the second season afte purchasing the gun. I did the steel wool and oil cleaning and repeat the process after each firing session. No more problems for several years now. I do release the pressure on the spring by pulling back on the trigger and letting the bolt "turn" into a fired position. I just came onto it on my own and thought it was a good thing to do.

I noticed a cut line in my nipple after this last season. Worked it out with a stone but it was back after a while so I figured it was time for a new nipple.

I have the Rem conversion kit but since I have used only powder with #11 mag caps I've had no ingition problems at all and don't see a need for the conversion. A stronger spring is another matter.

Because of the dirty flashback that builds up in the receiver I, have thought for a while that a stronger spring would perhaps hold more of the ignition gasses inside the nipple and breech. I didn't consider the extra spring strength for better ignition but gas containment.

Your thoughts?

sabotloader · « **Reply #18 on:** January 24, 2006, 07:24:55 AM »

samchap,

There is a possibilty that a stronger spring might hold the hammer to the nipple tighter and reduce some of the blowback. Another possiblity which it sound like you are doing is a new nipple. The gases that are blown back against and through the nipple can over time open the orfice allowing more blowback. These same gases can actually cut the steel as they move back through the breech plug and the nipple. In a Remington if you can stop the gasses from running back down the threads of the breech plug and out into the bolt area you a far far ahead of the game. If you look at the face of you breech plug it has a flanged flat area all the way arounf the plug - if you look inside you breech area in the gun you will see a similar face on the barrel at the end of the breech plug threads. If this face is clean and the face on the plug is clean and a seal is achieved at these two faces blow back into the threads of the BP will be sealed and contained in the barrel - that is good.

Here is a picture of my plug be fore and after...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v130/sabotloader/BreechPlug.jpg

samchap · « **Reply #19 on:** January 24, 2006, 11:09:52 AM »

sabotloader, One picture = many words

Is there a signifiance to the color of the pipe tape? I know white and have seen beige but never pink.

The tfe tape looks like it does the trick. Does it tend to melt where it is exposed in the breech?

sabotloader · « **Reply #20 on:** January 24, 2006, 02:10:51 PM »

samchap,

More pictures more words - you are probably going to be sorry you asked...

Quote

Is there a signifiance to the color of the pipe tape?

There is differences..
The white tape, plumbers tape, we see all the time is the thinnest tape out their designed for water lines.
The pink tape is a thicker tape and will with stand a greater temp.
The yellow tape is the thickest tape and is really designed for gasoline pipe.

The tape that you use will depend on how tight your breech plug is as it screws in - if it is so tight that it chews the tape up going in you will to use a thinner tape. I have found the pink tape (TC Breech Plug Tape), or pink tape from Home Depot (less expensive) works great in the Remingtons - but is to thick for the A&H's they need white.

The tape that is patted down over the face of the breech probaly does one or two things... a) a lot of it is blown out the barrel with the first shot but b) some of it is blown up and into the gas seal between the breech plug and the barrel creating an even better seal.

One of the keys when tightening the breech plug is not tear or ball up the tape in the threads and when the to faces meet squeeze the tape but do not crush it or tear it.

Here is some infomation I wrote up along time ago - it works for me but I can not guarantee it for you so experiment a bit at a time...

Breech Plug Sealing

http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=39309

It is my theory that sealing the breech plug should occur at the face of the breech plug against the rear flange of the barrel. If the blowback can be stopped where these two surfaces mate, blown back powder and more importantly the hot gases will be sealed from the threads of the breech plug. These gases and powder residue are responsible for the seizing of your breech plug. These same gases can cut your breech plug and cause a breech plug failure.

This subject came up again on another forum. This the information I posted and it WORKS, anyway on my four inlines. I really don not even worry about siezed plugs - I shoot several rounds each trip to the rock pit.

The following picture shows my efforts as explained below.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v130/sabotloader/BreechPlug2.gif

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v130/sabotloader/BreechPlug.jpg

This is one of those things that I have really been fortunate with. When I go to the range I shoot 30-40 shots 100 grains of loose t7 with 209 primers. I shoot 2 Remingtons and 2 A&H's. With all four of these guns I believe I have the breech plug thing whipped. I do not loosen or even fool around with the breech plug at the range. When I get home and get to it I turn it (them) out with very little pressure. I have tried several anti seize products, and anti seize with tape, even tried the finger tight thing, but have settled on just TC's tape or a comparable Teflon tape from a local building supply - one wrap.

From the two side locks that I built I think I have learned something.... I believe the face of the breech plug should mate up with the face flange of the barrel, if this mating is clean and tight, this mating should stop gasses from going back into the threads of your breech plug. I have blackened the face of my breech plugs screwed them in snuggly against the barrel flange - backed them back out and checked the black to see if contact had been made all the way around. The 2 Remingtons and one of the A&H's showed that there was good contact all the way around on the plug. One A&H seemed to have a very small non-contact spot. The next thing I do is start wrapping Teflon tape from the barrel end of the plug back to the nipple end. The key for me is that beginning wrap - when I am done wrapping the tape on the barrel end of the plug it should extend out from the plug - I then push and press the tape down on the face of the plug - insert it into the threads and I tighten it snuggly against the barrel flange - not tight - do not want to tear the Teflon, but make it snug because you need to compress the Teflon a bit. If you look down into the barrel with a barrel light you should see the Teflon all the way around the breech plug in the barrel. Your very first shot will drive that excess Teflon back up into any gaps there might be and your threads are sealed... (the Teflon might even cover the flash hole when your done wrapping) Popping one cap will take care of that.

That is my formula it has worked well for me - but every rifle is different so I can't say it will work for you all. I really believe it all comes down to how well the face of the plug and the face of the barrel mate up.

samchap · « **Reply #21 on:** January 24, 2006, 03:47:36 PM »

Sabotloader....Nice informative post. I'll give it a try. I'm also going to buy a #28 and a #32 spring from Brownells. I appreciate the time taken to reply...all.

samchap · « **Reply #22 on:** January 25, 2006, 03:28:12 AM »

Well, Brownell's made out real fine with my order of springs, nipples,trigger pull gauge and a bunch of cleaning stuff. Oh yeah...and the NRA.
:-D

sabotloader · « **Reply #23 on:** January 25, 2006, 04:04:09 AM »

samchap,

Oh ya! but just think when the stuff gets there it will be Christmas all over again in January - well probabaly Febuary....

samchap · « **Reply #24 on:** January 25, 2006, 11:21:56 AM »

sabotloader,

Have you ever tested the # pull on your 700 ml trigger? My brother adjusted his 700 ml down a tad and said his groups decreased nicely. But he has no real idea just what the setting is. It seems that my 700 ml trigger pull is a lot more than what my Win 70 is so I think it is factory set-heavy.

It will be interesting to test all my guns with the new trigger pull gague I ordered.

sabotloader · « **Reply #25 on:** January 25, 2006, 11:36:56 AM »

samchap,

There has been a ton of written material about how bad the Walker Remington 700 trigger might be. I have never had a problem with either of mine.

If you purchased a newer Rem 700ml (26 inch barrel) - it came with a tremedous trigger pull. It was adjsted somewhere up in the 6/7 lb range. Liability because of some of the complaints of the trigger. The trigger is adjustable and I have both of mine set at or near 3#'s. I would like to think I am somewhere in between 2.5 and 3. I consider this real respectible for hunting. Paper shooters will drop it even lower to get tighter groups.

Here is a site with the adjusting settings. You can get to fine and cause yourself a problem when putting on the safety or closing the bolt so following the directions carefully. If you do not have a gauge and you try to set it manually at home it will probably be to light when you get to the field with a charge in the barrel keep that in mind. I am trying to achieve a nice SMOOTH steady pull.

http://www.theoutdoorwriter.com/shooting/r700_trigger.htm

samchap · « **Reply #26 on:** January 25, 2006, 11:48:30 AM »

sabotloader,

Thanks for thje lead.

samchap