Author Topic: Winchester Powders Sold To Hodgdon (Read 917 times)

ricciardelli · « **on:** January 30, 2006, 01:29:23 PM »

News and Press Releases

Winchester signs license agreement with Hodgdon Powder Company

1/30/2006
Winchester Ammunition and Hodgdon Powder Company, two great names in reloading, are proud to announce a license agreement that is sure to excite every handloader. Winchester® branded reloading powders will now be licensed to Hodgdon Powder Company. Hodgdon Powder Company is the industry leader in supplying reloading powders. This partnership positions Winchester brand powders to best support the reloading customers needs.

You will still be able to find your favorite Winchester powder, from 231 to Super Target, with the consistent supply and support you are accustomed to from Hodgdon Powder Company.

After a brief transition period, Hodgdon Powder Company will assume responsibility for all orders, shipments, customer and technical service, including loading data for all Winchester branded reloading powders. Winchester Ammunition will continue to be your full line provider of world class ammunition and reloading components.

Patriot_1776 · « **Reply #1 on:** January 30, 2006, 01:57:37 PM »

<EDITED>

There are a few things that you guys posted in which there are some interesting things to consider on this subject of mergers, especially involving the gunpowder industries. It would seem at this point, only time will tell what happens next.

:?
-Patriot

Haywire Haywood · « **Reply #2 on:** January 30, 2006, 03:09:47 PM »

I think a lack of competition will stifle the development of new and better propellants. This is just another symptom of Winchester as a whole falling apart. Sad day it is.

Ian

Siskiyou · « **Reply #3 on:** January 30, 2006, 04:32:45 PM »

It will be interesting to see what happens now with Winchester Brand powders. I suspect that for years they have been tied in with military orders. Those orders supported their commercial powder business.

For years there has been a close relationship between many WW powders(Olin) and Hodgdon. Many of Hodgdon powders have been manufacture by Olin. Two great powders that disappeared at the same time were WW785 and H450.

I am sure that ricciardelli can provide a more complete list of Hodgdon powders that are manufactured by Olin. The spherical* powders (Hodgdon) and the ball* powders(WW) are manufactured by Olin. The last Hodgdon H4831 I purchased was manufacture in Scotland.

I lost faith in the Winchester brand sometime back. I wish Hodgdon the best. The have been the American reloaders friend for a lot of years. I see Hodgdon as being the corner stone of American Reloading. It is hard to tell who is manufacture what powder now days, but Hodgdon is holding two key brand names besides their own. This tells me the industry as a whole is not healthy.

Another name in the industry is Western Powder Company.

ricciardelli · « **Reply #4 on:** January 30, 2006, 08:46:18 PM »

Hodgdon powders are difficult to catalog. The reason being that Hodgdon never manufactured any powders. They simply would contact a manufacturer and tell them they wanted so much of a powder, and then would re-pack it.

That is why when you look at different Hodgdon labels you will see that at one time a powder was made in America, and the next batch would be Sweden, and then Australia, and then Canada.

The only consistant manufacturer was Olin, who was the only manufacturer of ball powders in the world, and managed to maintain that status.

However, now that Hodgdon owns the manufacturing plants and rights to IMR and WW powders, I am sure that they will stop buying from ADI and ATK.

I understand that the IMR powders are now shipping in the black Hodgdon containers (which is a good thing), and that shortly where there are powders that have both the IMR and the H prefix, they will start shipping only the stuff made at the old DuPont/IMR plants. I am not sure if they will be labeled IMR or Hodgdon, but I am pretty sure that there will not be both available. I understand that 4227 is now a single product.

This conversion process is bound to cause some difficulty...what Hodgdon should do is rename all the "dual named" powders the same way Ball C was renamed...H-4227(2), H-4350(2), etc.

HP-38 is W-231
HS-6 is W-540
HS-7 is W-571
H-110 is W-296
BL(C)-2 is W-748
H-414 is W-760

To tell the truth, I thought that Hodgdon should have jumped on both Alliant and Accurate when they decided to sell.

ricciardelli · « **Reply #5 on:** January 30, 2006, 08:49:05 PM »

"I think a lack of competition will stifle the development of new and better propellants."

Good grief! There are over 220 different powders on the commercial market now, not counting pulled military surplus.

You wnat more?

Graybeard · « **Reply #6 on:** January 31, 2006, 01:07:36 AM »

I personally don't look on this as a good thing. I hope it works out that way but am concerned that it won't.

BTW Steve you need to recheck your info on who make ball powders. Olin isn't the only one. Primex is the Olin owned company that made them for Winchester and Hodgdon but they didn't make those sold by Accurate or Western. Western now owns Accurate and I'd sure hate to see some of my favorite powders in the Accurate line disappear in a few years.

Now that Hodgdon owns three of the major US brands of powder I can't imagine them not dropping some of them in the next few years. As a minimum those Winchester and Hodgdon duplicates will be dropped which I guess is no big deal other than some times a better buy could be found in one over the other.

jgalar · « **Reply #7 on:** January 31, 2006, 03:17:50 AM »

Hodgdon is getting a monopoly on powders. They may refuse to sell their powders to a stocking dealer if they sell different brands. I fear prices may go up and choices will diminish.

Harry Snippe · « **Reply #8 on:** January 31, 2006, 04:38:00 AM »

Quote from: jgalar

Hodgdon is getting a monopoly on powders. They may refuse to sell their powders to a stocking dealer if they sell different brands. I fear prices may go up and choices will diminish.

I read in one of the mags. that there are not as many reloaders as there once were . This in part because reloading does not always promise better loads . And for the " few box's a year shooter why bother?

So with a decreasing "MarKet" I can only see higher prices and less choice.
You have seen Savage drop the model 99.
Winchester now drop rifles ,
Remington regrouping some of it's lines.

As long as labour is cheaper off shore,the raw materals will be sent out to make the items we need or want.

Some day all of this is going to come to an end with so many jobs lost on this side of the pond, since we are not otherwise be hired in Shipping.

All because today every one wants more money and pay less.

Lone Star · « **Reply #9 on:** January 31, 2006, 05:22:27 AM »

Quote

"I think a lack of competition will stifle the development of new and better propellants."
Good grief! There are over 220 different powders on the commercial market now, not counting pulled military surplus. You wnat more?

I don't think that "wanting more" is the real issue. Most of those powders have very limited markets, and many are old designs. Some modern powders - like the "Extreme" line from Hodgdon - are advances with real benefits to the consumer. If Hodgdon distributes a majority of the propellants we use in the US and competes with itself, what would drive them to spend the R&D capital to develop new and better products?

Hodgdon is still primarilly a distributor (other than the IMR facility - where does it say that Olin sold their plant to Hodgdon?) but they source their products worldwide and have done so for many years. To say that we will lose more jobs to overseas powder makers is being overly dramatic IMO. Those jobs have been overseas for decades.

With a shrinking market (is this fact or opinion?) someone needs to reduce the number of different powders or the market will be too diluted and no single company will be very profitable. Too many vendors in a small market is not always a good thing....but then neither is a single vendor. :wink:

(BTW, Olin and USRA are completely different companies with no business connection. What happens to one has no direct effect on the other.)

.

Questor · « **Reply #10 on:** January 31, 2006, 08:27:02 AM »

Haywire nailed it. I think this is bad because it may contribute to a loss of resilience in the industry.

longwinters · « **Reply #11 on:** January 31, 2006, 11:34:49 AM »

What do they call it . . . "synergies", when similar companies merge (one gets bought out) and then they lay off everyone who does a duplicate job. Then the big shots make more money . . . but the price never comes down. Hoora for greed.

Long

Jim n Iowa · « **Reply #12 on:** January 31, 2006, 01:39:13 PM »

So where are we? Is the glass half empty or half full?
Here is my take . IMR is one of my favorites(blind sided by older duffers). Winchester, I had to like the ball powder. To me both these company's put out very little load info as ie: Speer. To me Hodgdon shared a lot of info to hand loaders.
I think this merger is not a trick by the anti's, but rather a good business move, that we will benefit from. Think back when we thought that the liberal gov would take away our access to primers. I have a lot of primers to this day.
Jim

Slamfire · « **Reply #13 on:** January 31, 2006, 04:43:19 PM »

Hey Graybeard, I've not seen much in the way of Hogdon's dropping duplicate powders in the IMR series. What makes you think they will drop duplicate Olin powders? Not that it wouldn't make some sense in a few instances.

victorcharlie · « **Reply #14 on:** February 01, 2006, 01:32:52 AM »

Quote from: longwinters

What do they call it . . . "synergies", when similar companies merge (one gets bought out) and then they lay off everyone who does a duplicate job. Then the big shots make more money . . . but the price never comes down. Hoora for greed.

Long

Longwinters just nailed it!!!!

willysjeep134 · « **Reply #15 on:** February 02, 2006, 03:47:02 AM »

I don't think they will be dropping or renaming duplicates. They bought the brand for the name, I say. If some old guy likes using the WW powders he will probably not like having to switch. If two powders are truely identical, then the only diference in cost between making either one is how it is packaged. This way they get twice the product line just by printing up a bunch of WW labels. If they didn't care about the brand name, they could just as well build a powder mill over seas for less than they probably spend acquiring the Winchester one here in the states.

Graybeard · « **Reply #16 on:** February 02, 2006, 04:37:44 AM »

Quote

Hey Graybeard, I've not seen much in the way of Hogdon's dropping duplicate powders in the IMR series. What makes you think they will drop duplicate Olin powders? Not that it wouldn't make some sense in a few instances.

I'm aware of no duplicates between IMR and Hodgdon powders. There are some with same number but they are NOT the same powder. Whereas some of the Winchester and Hodgdon powders are exactly the same powder just using different names.