Author Topic: Long range varmiting (Read 1397 times)

Qaz · « **on:** February 01, 2006, 02:04:40 AM »

I know this is a little early for alot of us, but lets hear about shooting varmits at over 100 yards. Lets hear the distance (Lasered or walked, but not imagined), the pistol, caliber and the scope + power. This will be my first year, so no experience. I hope to work up to a reliable 300 yards by the end of summer.

Qaz

jhalcott · « **Reply #1 on:** February 01, 2006, 10:54:47 AM »

Q, 300 yards is a long way for many a rifle shooter! Few factory guns are good enough . I have a 6.5JDJ contender, a 7IHMSA.and a 7BR plus others. Custom triggers,Barrels and high end scopes are ALMOST demanded for the ranges you are looking for.I don't mean high POWER scopes, as 4x is often all I use.Frequent practice at long range is required also.Quality reloads are worlds above factory ammo. I have a shooting table that I take with me,several sandbags,front bench rest and at LEAST 1 spotting scope either a 25x Leupold or a 20x60.I have shot prairee dogs at 200+ ,at deer 225 and ground hogs at near 300 yards.I good rest and good glass are very important1

jhalcott · « **Reply #2 on:** February 01, 2006, 11:39:16 AM »

Q, 300 yards is a long way for many a rifle shooter! Few factory guns are good enough . I have a 6.5JDJ contender, a 7IHMSA.and a 7BR plus others. Custom triggers,Barrels and high end scopes are ALMOST demanded for the ranges you are looking for.I don't mean high POWER scopes, as 4x is often all I use.Frequent practice at long range is required also.Quality reloads are worlds above factory ammo. I have a shooting table that I take with me,several sandbags,front bench rest and at LEAST 1 spotting scope either a 25x Leupold or a 20x60.I have shot prairee dogs at 200+ ,at deer 225 and ground hogs at near 300 yards.I good rest and good glass are very important1

Lone Star · « **Reply #3 on:** February 02, 2006, 03:41:27 AM »

How someone can shoot at and hit a ground squirrel or pdog at 300 yards with a 4x scope escapes me! Heck, I can't even see one at that range in most surroundings. The limit for me is the optics. I use a 2x7 Burris on my XP-100 in .250/3000 and do okay out to 250 or so. I've tried my 10x Burris, but it is so critical in eye position that it is very tough to use for targets of opportunity in the field. Perhaps off an established bench it would work, but not for typical field positions.

A spotter helps immensely. There is no way you can spot your shots with a handgun so it is tough to tell how much to correct after a miss. I often shot alone, but that is a handicap. Working with a spotter will increase your hits and your enjoyment of the shooting.

FWIW my longest shot was ca. 300 yards on an Alaskan marmot (no laser). .250/3000, 75 HP @ 3000 fps, 2x7 Burris, custom XP-100 with Hart barrel and mid-grip Fagen stock.

jhalcott · « **Reply #4 on:** February 02, 2006, 07:38:09 AM »

Lone star, I do NOT shoot off the hood of my vehicle,or stand out in the wind holding my gun out at arms length! I posted that I use a stable table and sand bags,Leupold scopes(usually) for this kind of shooting. I also practice shooting soda cans at 300 yards quite often. I don't condemn long range shooting at game,BUT reccommend frequent practice BEFORE trying it ! Check some ballistic programs and you will see that drop and WINDAGE are different from the kinds of rounds I shoot than the usual 22-250/220 Swift bullets sent down range for varmints. I have seen some amazing shots taken in prairee dog fields with IRON sights. Some critters I couldn't see with out a scope. I paid for a new scope shooting groups against rifle shooters using 9 and 12 power scopes on their guns. Every component of my loads were weighed and measured for consistency. They would group under an inch at 200 yards when I did my part and the sand bags were kind to me.this is NOT meant as a flame,I just wanted Q to understand a FEW of the problems with long range pistol varminting.

xphunter · « **Reply #5 on:** February 03, 2006, 05:25:02 PM »

This is a post I made back in October of 2005. My shooting buddy, Steve Hugel posted this first part. Ernie

Steve Wrote:
Well, i probably wouldn't have believed it had i not been there, but Ernie popped 1 at 1590 to day. After getting set up I was spotting with the Big Eyes, and when i started to scan the mile dog mounds, 2 coyotes were making their way thru the dog town, so we sent some missiles their way to no avail, then it was onto dogs, and he was using his David White built 6mm-284 XP-100 / 115 DTAC / Leupold 8.5-25/TMR reticle. We thought the dog was actually at the mile mark, but when we got to it, we found out differently. The spot we're shooting at goes across a valley to about 1000, then it gently rises to about 1600, and it then flattens out, so it's hard to know from the shooting spot exactly where the mile point's at. We're gonna mark it with stakes, and flags tomorrow to help. Anyways he starts shooting at this dog, and i'm trying my best to get him in on it, but even 20X at that range is difficult to be as precise as if he was a tenth the distance closer. But conditions weren't bad, and he kepy getting closer and closer, until the last shot rang true, at 63 MOA elevation, and 8 MOA windage (5-10 mph wind). The dog was on all 4's, and the bullet hit amidships, and exited violently out his abdomen taking entrails with it. He flipped around for a couple seconds, and regained his senses, and started making for his mound, but he didn't have it in him, and he finally died just short of home. We got a buncha pics., and i've no doubt Ernie will post some soon. Anyways, to bed now to continue the 1 mile pr. dog saga tomorrow.
The End (for today).

Steve

Below is the updated post from your truly--Ernie

Wednesday afternoon (1590 yd. dog) was almost sureal. I had made the first goal I had set for myself with the 6mm-284 shooting the 115 DTAC. This is a sporter barrel with an H-S center-grip stock. It is the action and stock that used to wear my 284 Win Barrel (built by Chunk Youngblood). David White rebarreled it in 6mm-284 and rebedded the action to the stock.
My first goal was to make 1500+ yards for the 1500 yard club in the Varmint Hunter Magazine. From what I could tell no one had ever hit a prarie dog beyond 1300 yds. with a SP. The next goal was a one mile PD.
Thursdays weather was not as cooperative. We didn't get started till after lunch. I was using the MOA Maximum in 6.5-284 with a 6.5-20 Leupold dot reticle scope and The Bower Rest System. Richard Mertz (MOA) had modified a mount to shoot LR with but it was not enough for the 1800 mound I was shooting at. I had to pick a spot way above the dog as a means of reticle alignment. A number of times when the conditions laid down for awhile I was was within a couple of inches. We left the town with the same amount of living PD's as when we arrived that afternoon
The BRS does a great job of taking the vertical out of the picture. Next time I will make sure I can get to a mile plus with the mounting system on the MOA (One of the lessons learned this past week). Any type of tactical or mil-dot reticle would have been helpful.
I am thinking of a way to use the BRS with my rear grip XP-10 6.5-284. I am convinced I can get better accuracy wit it than with bags.
Friday brought better weather
To make long story short, I again set-up on the same mound as the day before with the MOA, but with the rear grip 6.5-284 shooting 140 A-Max's.
Sent about 40 rounds down range with a number of times spotter's calling within inches and a few times one calling barely right while the other called barely left. I began shooting at the one mile steel target and realized the mount had come loose again (another lesson learned). I switched to the 6-284 and put six shots on steel at a mile (it took more than six shots though). When we went out to take pics of the steel, Erik wanted to go bullet hunting. I said, "OK." and we headed to what we affectionately called the "Cholla Mound." If it had not been for a bullet hunting 11 year old we would have missed the find of the week (and it wasn't bullets). What we found was blood, quite a bit of it at the mound I had been shooting at with the 6.5. At the impact velocity the 140 A-Max in all likelyhood just penciled him. Steve was so gutsy he even reached his hand into the mound to see if it was within arms reach to no avail. But the proof of hit was undeniable. Range was 1800 yards.
If you have any questions, just fire away (pun intended).
I have no doubt 2000+ yards can be achieved, but you are going to need what would be considered perfect conditions and higher BC bullets than what I was using.
Was there luck involved in this endeavor? Certainly. But you cannot get "lucky" unless you do everything in your power to put the odds in your favor.
I will describe Saturdays shooting a little later.
This was our first time to shoot PD's beyond 1000 yards. It felt good to get our feet wet and to have some success at the same time.

1590 Yard PD with 6-284 XP

1800 yd. dog with rear grip 6.5-284 XP (SLR Mount w/ 20x LER Scope)

Looking back to the suburban (1800 yards)

This is what is possible with specialty handguns @ LR.
In fact, 2,000 yards is a realistic possibility with the right set-up, perseverance, and great conditions

xphunter · « **Reply #6 on:** February 03, 2006, 05:43:50 PM »

Here is the thread I orginally made at the first of November.
http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=75603

Lone Star,
One way to maximize range with small targets and low magnification is to adjust your windage (let's say to the right)so that your POI (point of impact) kills the PD when the right edge of the vertical crosshair is almost touching the PD's left side. You adjust your vertical in the same way so when looking at the dog you put the top edge of the horizontal crosshair at the bottom/dirt juncture (or just a tad lower), but the bullet will be impacting mid body.
This allows you to continue to use your crosshair as an accurate reference, but not cover up your target with the crosshair itself.
In fact I use the same procedure when shooting LR with high X's.

Qaz · « **Reply #7 on:** February 07, 2006, 02:18:23 AM »

This is all good information, for some one just starting out. Lonestar, you are using a pistol scope and Xphunter, you are using a rifle scope. What are the pro's and con's for each?
Does a long eye relief scope give a person enough cushion not to get a shiner under recoil?
When sighting in a pistol, does it need to be in some type of rest that can secure it to one spot like a ransom rest?

Qaz

Lone Star · « **Reply #8 on:** February 07, 2006, 04:09:21 AM »

A lot depends on how you hunt. Shooting off a bench is a far different type of hunting than I usually do, which is walking into the high country and shooting targets of opportunity. Shooting standing prarie dogs on short grassland is a far cry from shooting marmot off rocky outcroppings. No matter how you adjust your poa/poi, you can't see the latter at 300 yards with a 4x scope very often...at least I can't.

Shooting varmints off a bench is not much different than shooting targets at the range - not that it isn't very difficult and rewarding at very long range, it certainly is. But it is different than hunting varmints and shooting off sacks of grain or a bipod while lying in the dust (after spotting an animal from half a mile away with a 30x spotting scope then sneaking within range). The equipment and techniques are far different - make sure you get what fits your style of hunting/shooting.

Rifle scopes come in higher powers and can be had for less money but can require very limited and critical eye positioning. Pistol scopes are in lower powers but are usually much more forgiving in eye/head positioning. Shooting off a bench allows the use of high power rifle scopes - I've used them on occasion at the range while waiting for a handgun scope to arrive - but they are to me too limiting when hunting in the field.

XP - the issue is seeing the animal, not him hiding behind the crosshairs. I appreciate the tip but I've used it for years - may have originally read about it from you in fact.

JH - I don't know what got you so cranked up, but that was not my intent. I don't care how you hold your handgun (where did that come from anyway?), I can't see the varmints at 300 yards against camoflaging rocky backgrounds with a 4x scope. Sorry you got so upset.

jhalcott · « **Reply #9 on:** February 07, 2006, 05:02:58 AM »

I did not realize how "cranked up "I sounded till I reread my post,sorry!
Anyway ,I some times walk the edges of fields and pop ground hogs with a 45 auto or a .22 pistol.When I go for LONG range varmints,the whole game changes.The table, guns and sand bags are always in the truck. I have seen guys at the club try to hit clay birds laying on the berms at 200 & 300yards and tell me I must be lieing about hitting at 300. Then I have to show them how to do it and accept their apologies. NO I can't see ground hogs in high grass,even soda bottles at 300 yards in tall grass are safe.Once you spot a GH in a fresh mown field with a spotting scope you can pick him up in a 4x scope.Prairee dogs are the same only smaller. I think I should get a commission from T/C because of the people who buy them after seeing what I do with my guns!
Again I'm sorry I sounded so gruff!

S.B. · « **Reply #10 on:** February 07, 2006, 10:41:23 AM »

xphunter, hard to believe? Even with a rifle.

xphunter · « **Reply #11 on:** February 07, 2006, 12:04:02 PM »

I use both LER and rifle scopes. A LER scope is plenty far away to keep you safe.
They types of rests I use for bench work are the very same I use for PD's.
My guns do move in recoil and are not mechanically held from moving.

My longest shot was made with a customized 20x LER by Wally Siebert(converted 36x Leupold into a 20x LER scope).
My longest PD before that time was when I live in the Panhandle of TX and made a kill out to 700 yards with my 284 Win XP with 140 NBT's. I would need to look at the pics again, but I think that was with the 3-9 Burris. I don't think I had a 3-12 back then (don't think they were made yet).

S.B.,
Not a problem. It seems unreal to me sometimes and I was there.
If it helps any I had my longtime hunting/shooting buddy Steve there, my son, Steve's mom and Mitch (Steve's mom and Mitch were not there the whole time though).
This involved three days of shooting with only 2 kills. Several dogs were flipped in the air on Saturday morning in the 1100 -1300 yard arena, but no hits.
We never even attempted shots under 1500 yards until the last morning (Saturday).
In the next year or so when I go for 2k+ I invite anyone to come and watch, but I will be up front with that you will be there in a spotting or watching role, not in a shooting role. Steve and I did this shoot this past October since there were no left-over cow tags in the area we usually hunt.
I know this is selfish of me, but when I set out vacation time to for this next attempt it will be Steve and I shooting.

If it all works out like it is planned you will be able to see a couple of guys shooting out to one mile with specialty handguns in the next 12 months on TV. In fact, if I hadn't been challenged to do it, I would have likely never made the attempt that we did this past October.
There is a number of things that are required once you get your rigs capable enough to do the job, Conditions, Conditions, Conditions, and some luck.
FWIW my primary 1 mile rig XP will not be a 6.5-284 (although I will use it), but rather 1-7 Twist Lilja chambered in 7mm Dakota.
Much better BC in 7mm for extreme ranges.
Even have some 200 grain ultra low drag rebated boat tail bullets for it, just waiting to be loaded.
XP should be finished in less than 2 months.

Qaz · « **Reply #12 on:** February 09, 2006, 02:07:23 AM »

Xphunter- What weight do you have your triggers set at? What would you recommend for a beginner whith a pistol?
I have been shooting rifles for 40yrs. I like a 2 1/2 to 3 pound pull on the rifle. That seems heavy on the T/C I have. I think part of it is the anticipation of the sear breaking. I also need to learn to pull the trigger in a more uniform way, any advice?
I am shooting off a bench using bags. I catch myself trying to push the forearm into the bag to adjust poa. This is probably not the right thing to be doing, huh?
This whole thing is a learning process and I am a sponge at this time. Any help is appreciated.

Qaz

xphunter · « **Reply #13 on:** February 09, 2006, 02:18:33 AM »

The rear grip XP I used has a Jewell trigger which can be measured in ounces and it has no safety. It is strictly a bench pistol.
The MOA Maximum also a rear grip has a light trigger around a pound (never measured it). My centergrip XP's have triggers are as light as possible and still be safe (all have safetys).
For group shooting and varminting, lighter is better.
I got to go now, but will post more about this later.

xphunter · « **Reply #14 on:** February 09, 2006, 05:05:55 AM »

The key is to take yourself out of the picture as much as possible and let the SP do its work.
For break opens my hands down preferred rest sytem for LR shooting is the Bower Rest System. It just works!
I admit when I first saw one I was skeptical. Skepticism has turned to admiration. I use it.
Here is a pic of my 11 year old this past summer shooting at 1k with my 6.5-284 MOA Maximum off of a portable bench.

Once I got him on, he shot 3 shots then I had him run some clicks up and he shot four more time. In essence a 3 shot group and a four shot group.
Here is the pic at 1,000 yards.

If you are wondering about the size of the group a Burris 3-12 scope in on the MOA. Group size is around 10 inches and most of it is horizontal. Notice how small the vertical group is. This is typical with a BRS.
You want to keep your focus on the crosshair and keep it there through the shot. Grip it like you would a hammer. Learn to pull the trigger without changing your grip on the pistol and place your finger on the trigger (between the tip of your finger and your first joint). Get a lighter trigger pull. On my Contender, M i k e B. did mine and it is great :grin: