reloading-speed, nodes, bullet weight

[bluebayou]

I have been reloading for a year or so now.  Have had good results and bad results.  Was reading in Lyman manual (I think) about how you should record a load's speed from a chronograph so that you can find comprable speeds with other loads in the same caliber but different bullet weight.  I have never heard of this idea before.  Anyone have any logic or experience to back it up?  

I understand stabilization being derived from weight, rate of twist, speed, and bearing surface (in a nutshell).  Stabilization isn't everything.  But this speed only idea had never entered my mind for planning the loading process.

I would of course follow starting loads and pressure signs.  So, for the sake of arguement the WW 45 HP goes 3200fps in my Handi.  If I find a powder that would push the 60gr VMAX to 3200 would it (in theory) be accurate too?  This might be a poor example.

[Nightrain52]

No! There are to many variables in handloading. Change primer, different brand of case, bullet seating depth, temperature, or type, brand, or weight of bullet can all effect velocity and or accuracy.

The way I do it is to consult several different manuals. I pick the powder that gives the most velocity with the least amount of pressure for a given load. CAUTION: I'm just saying this is my procedure that I use. Always start at the minimum load and work your way up carefully.

[mitchell]

yeah i'm with nightrain it don't work like that too many variables




the way i do it is to look at several manuals , almost all manuals have at the bottom of the page the most accurate powder for that weight, just look at several different books and see what powder is recommended the most. then i go down 7% from the max load and work up to find my rifles max, then after i have my rifles max load I go back down 5% and load 3 rounds for every .3 grains go shoot them all and see what works the best, then go from there.

[cheatermk3]

I think (just guessing here) that what the Lyman book is trying to tell you is that when you find a load that shoots good, record the chrono results because the dynamics of your barrel that produced the good result (small groups) will likely work the same for a different bullet/powder primer combination IF it produces the same velocity.

[safetysheriff]

bb'

no insult intended.....but why would they say same velocity with different bullet weights in the same caliber?   that is somewhat a contradiction.

the Most Important thing to remember about any rifle (handgun, too) is that each one is a law unto itself!   what yours likes, mine may not.    even if all else is the same except the serial numbers -- they are still potentially, that's a key word, potentially very different rifles.

if you are loading a .223 or a .22-250 i'd greatly recommend Hodgdon's BL-C(2)  or bulk WC-846 from someone like www.Patsreloading.com.   i've seen excellent results in Handi's and Remingtons in those calibers with the bulk powder, and have read that BL-C(2) is a popular, accurate powder in many of those rifles as well.    i use Rem' 7 1/2 BR primers in Rem' nickel-plated .223 cases for Excellent accuracy with Hornady 60 gr' spire points in a 1 in 12" twist Handi'.

take care,

ss'

[bluebayou]

Maybe I didn't explain it well enough.  What the article was saying was that if Bullet A reaches Speed A with Powder A and it is accurate then Bullet B with the same Speed A with Powder B would be accurate too.  

No offense taken.  This seemed like a pretty lame way to look for an accurate load.  BUT...maybe someone knew something that I didn't.  I have the Hornady 60's and the BLC-2.  I just haven't loaded any rounds yet.  

Just curious.  Cheatermk3 is right with me.  Maybe I didn't explain well enough.  Just guessing I would say that this "best accuracy speed" idea is someking of harmonic idea.  ----Not that I think that it is valid, just what the article was trying to suggest.

[Nightrain52]

Well let me put it this way. Would you rather have bullet A going 4,000ft per second and shooting 4in. groups or bullet B going 3500ft per second and printing 1/2 in. groups? Every rifle is a law in itself. If you shoot a heavier bullet at the same velocity as a light bullet it will have different harmonics. Through the velocity out the window and depend on the rifle to tell you what it wants.
 I see you say you have been handloadig for about a year now. Handloading can drive you nuts at times. Just don't let anyone talk you into getting way out in left field. There are so many variables in reloading. I think we all look for that magic load that will print 5 shot groups in one hole. Remember-BE SAFE.

[cheatermk3]

Guys,
What we're talking about here is what works in one rifle, not a universally applied yardstick.

Having said that, I can tell you that I have loaded for 5 223 rifles that I have personally owned plus one other, owned by my hunting partner Craig W.  At one point I was loading for 4 223s, so I was F/L sizing and had standardized on one load that, believe it or not, shoots MOA or better in all 6 rifles.  This is a near max load using 50 grain vmax (or ballistic tip) bullets and 24.5 grains of AA2230, in WW or Rem cases, with 7-1/2 BR primers.  I buy powder in kegs, buying 4 kegs of one lot at a time.  I'm now using surplus powder that is very close to AA2230 in burning rate, I believe my present lot is 5% faster than the AA2230; so I am using a bit less than 24.5 grains.

For 40 grain bullets I increase the charge by 1 grain.  In Military cases, I reduce the charge by 10%.  I do not mix headstamps.

I also prep new cases by sizing, trimming to min length, and removing the burr on the flash hole.  This last step is very important, in my experience.  After you have done a few hundred cases you'll be amazed at the varience--some cases will have little or no burr to remove--some will have LOTS.  You can bet that a case with one of those big bugger burrs will throw a shot way outta your group.

It is my belief that of all the variables involved in making ammo, the powder charge is the most forgiving.  Once you find what works things like concentricity and that pesky burr will have a greater effect on group size and consistent accuracy than a few tenths of a grain of powder, especially in the larger cases.

JMHO, of course.

[Nightrain52]

I agree cheatermk3, It's the little things that make the difference.

[JPH45]

One other peice of the puzzle is that barrels tend ot be accurate at differnet speeds. As an example barrels will typically give good accuracy at 1300, 1800, 2200, 2600. (that may move up or down according to the barrel) Once a barrels speed has been found then different loads that make that spped will shoot well. Not a hard fast rule, but a generalization that many find useful. Part of what Lymanis describing is barrel time, and it is not unusual for loads traveling the same speeds to shoot well. So it is important to know not only the speeds that shoot well, but those that don't too, as they should be avoided. No use making loads that are the wrong speed.

[JPH45]

Nighttrain52, a freindly jab at your signature..... The point of fighting is to make the enemy die for his ideals.

[bluebayou]

You've watched Patton too many times.  Great, great movie.

[bluebayou]

You know I think that I am at the "know enough to be dangerous" stage.  I have some pretty good technical skills and some patience.  Have experimented but now have a reloading routine.  But...I get do get sidetracked by weird ideas.  

Will try to stay out of left field.  
Also, will get a flash-hole deburring tool with my fat Midway/Midsouth order that I am gearing up thanks to the guvmint.

[Nightrain52]

I think we have all been thru it bluebayou. I have been reloading since 1973. I was a velocity freak at first and would push things pretty hard. Finally wised up and still have both eyes and all my fingers. :-) Not near as brave as when I first started.

My first reloads were with the old Lee Loader. The one you used a hammer with. It was kind of slow but still capable of producing good ammo. I still have one today for my 30-06 and still enjoy using it if I don't have a bunch too reload.

[safetysheriff]

You know I think that I am at the "know enough to be dangerous" stage.  .

bb'

while i am in agreement re: 'accuracy nodes', it is important to remember, as a rifle throat is eroding it can cause velocity to drop off.   at some point it is tempting to keep putting more powder into the cartridge to get back that velocity.   unfortunately, the rough throat/bore can cause pressures to go up significantly and erosion can accelerate.   with a bolt-action you can remove some of the barrel and re-chamber it, and re-crown it.   with a Handi' that is not an option.  

sooooo......don't let the chronograph get you into trouble.   if you have more than one accuracy node in your rifle, load for one that is not near the max' so the throat and bore will last longer while you maintain your consistent accuracy.

best to you,

ss'  

ps:   'boots' obermeyer did an excellent interview on barrel erosion with one of the sniper sites copying some of that magazine article onto the web.   a 'search' of barrel erosion led me to the interview.    smaller bores, heavier bullets and slower powders in bigger bores, were 'boots' biggest factors in causing erosion.    he is a premier mfr' of accuracy barrels so his experience is well-founded.   it was a good read.

[Mac11700]

Every rifle is a law in itself. If you shoot a heavier bullet at the same velocity as a light bullet it will have different harmonics. Through the velocity out the window and depend on the rifle to tell you what it wants.

How true this is.. :agree: Even when it's the same cartridge..

A nice gentelman at Redding by the name of Bruce Merkur is a wealth of information.He recommends setting the dies up a-little different than what most folks normally do.When I had my 338-06 done..Quick and myself went with Redding dies..and I called him and got his advice on loading for our little single shots..and it has helped a-lot on shrinking my groups with all calibers and even with different die sets I use that I load for my Handi's..to me,it was well worth the phone call to talk with him,here's his phone number...1-607-753-3331..

Mac

[Winter Hawk]

DO NOT TRY TO GET THE SAME VELOCITY FROM A HEAVIER BULLET!

If you are near max pressure with the 45 gr. bullet you would be exceeding safe pressures with the 60 gr. pill!  Danger, danger, danger!!!

Having got that out of my system, I think what they are talking about is that if you change from one bullet shape to another of the same weight, and adjust the charge of the same or diffferent powder to get the same velocity as you had before, you should get the same sized groups as you did before.  This is a function of barrel harmonics.  BUT, since powders have different burning rates, the time for the bullet to get up to that velocity may differ throwing off the harmonics and changing your group size.  So as a generalization this is probably true, but I would still try various loads below and above what you come up with to see which will give the tightest groups.

-Winter Hawk-