Author Topic: SE Alaska big game rifle .338WinMag 30-06 7 (Read 1894 times)

Robert357 · « **on:** January 30, 2006, 04:41:36 PM »

My oldest son (age 24) just started working for an airline. I do consulting work for some companies in SE Alaska every now and then. Over dinner, my youngest son (age 21 & Jr in college) said he wanted to hunt something big (moose/bear/elk). My oldest son suggested a hunting trip to SE Alaska and said he would take care of tickets for all of us.

I will pick up the cost for the lodging/guide.

What firearms should we take with us. Outside of some SKS's, shotguns, and Marlin 30-30, the reasonable medium bore rifles I have are a Mod 70 Win .338 Win Mag, a Win Mod 70 featherweight in 30-06, a sporterized Arisaka Type 99 in 7.7x58 and a Russian stock MN 1891/30 in 7.62x54 R.

My thoughts are the Win Mod 70 in .338 Win Mag with 210 Nosler Partician or maybe a good 250 grain bullet. My hesitation with this is that it is about all the recoil I can handle and probably well past what either of my two sons can handle.

Next choice is the 30-06 with 220 grain handloaded bullets that will be up there near max powder for H-4831. The featherweight is nice to carry when shooting the normal 165 to 170 grain handloads is use, but with 220's could have a bit of shoulder punch due to its lightness.

I have also bought some Woodleigh 215 grain bullets (Aussie company designed for the 303 Brit) in .312 inch diameter. I am going to work on some heavy 215 grain bullet loads for both the Arisaka and the MN. The 215 grain bullet should deliver just slightly less than 30-06 performance, but not far from it in either the 7.62x54R or the 7.7x58.

The Alaska F&W website indicates that the two most common guide complaints are out-of-shape hunters and hunters with new magnum guns they can't shoot accurately.

I am pondering between rifle power for big game and recoil problems for the shooters.

Any suggestions or thoughts?

Part of me says that at the cost of lodging/guide why not use this as an excuse to buy another rifle, say a 300 Win Mag or a 8 MM Rem Mag. Then I think that the recoil would probably still be too much for them to really do well with.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #1 on:** January 30, 2006, 04:48:22 PM »

The .30-06 is the most popular...

http://www.wildlife.alaska.gov/index.cfm?adfg=huntingbulletin.hntbul8#cartridges

Lone Star · « **Reply #2 on:** January 30, 2006, 04:53:38 PM »

I lived in Alaska for 27 winters - take the .338. If recoil bothers you, why not just reduce the velocity a bit - that makes a WHOLE lot more sense than dropping down to a .300 Mag or an 8mm Mag, both of which recoil about the same as the .338 anyway. Use Nosler or Barnes 210s, they are proven performers and you'll need nothing more for Alaskan game.

Nothing wrong with the .30-06 either. Use 180 or 200-grain premium bullets, the 220s are pretty much dinosaurs with modern bullet technology. The Ruskie Nagant is good too, not very well known but the practical equal of the '06. Good bullets are a good idea.

There is no need to buy a new rifle considering what you already have - unless you just want to.

PS - I was part of Lee's survey in 1999 (see previous post)- he counted me as one of the .338 shooters.
.

Buckfever · « **Reply #3 on:** January 30, 2006, 05:09:15 PM »

This gun can be purchased on gun broker from time to time for $500.00 new. It is a Mauser action and shoots a 286gr. at 2400fps or so. very popular in Africa. Will be good out to 300yds. You have a good bear stopper if you place that 286gr right. Kicks less than a 300 Win Mag. More of a push than a sharp kick. I have one in a Full Stock with a 20" barrel. What a sweet gun and caliber. I mostly have Tikkas and Remingtons but this CZ is the first of more. Check the caliber out it is a bit stronger than a 35 Whelan another great caliber for Alaska and North America. Buckfever

sniperVLS · « **Reply #4 on:** January 30, 2006, 05:40:45 PM »

There are so many suggestions one could give, where 2 start....

I'd say the .338wm, but it would be rendered useless if the shooter is not 100% confident with it.

A smaller caliber that you are all familiar/comfortable with, is far better than a cannon that none of you cares 2 shoot much.

Daveinthebush · « **Reply #5 on:** January 30, 2006, 05:43:47 PM »

If you can shoot the .338 well bring that with some good quality bullets. The 06 would be second with 180-200 grain bullets. If you loose your ammunition at some point you can always buy some ammunition up here.

With the 9.3-62 you might find ammunition in Juneau, Fairbanks or Anchorage. Out in the more remote parts..............forget it. The only way a remote store might have 9.3-62 is if the owner orders some for someone already in town that has one.

Thebear_78 · « **Reply #6 on:** January 30, 2006, 06:16:44 PM »

30/06 and the 338 WM are two winners for sure. If you want another rifle it would be hard to go wrong with that either :grin:

You didn't mention exactly what you were hunting for. A good 06, 300 or 338 WM are good places to start.

Slamfire · « **Reply #7 on:** January 30, 2006, 06:33:44 PM »

I doubt you'll need those extremely heavy bullets, the 180 .30-06 has taken an elephant or two. :wink:

Daveinthebush · « **Reply #8 on:** January 30, 2006, 06:39:04 PM »

Quote

I doubt you'll need those extremely heavy bullets, the 180 .30-06 has taken an elephant or two.

While this is true! Elephants don't have bad breath and claws.

Ring the dinner bell and they will come. That is the reason for mainly being overgunned up here.

Don't carry enough gun for what you are hunting, carry enough gun for what may be hunting you. :biggun:

Robert357 · « **Reply #9 on:** January 30, 2006, 08:14:21 PM »

Wow what great advice! Thank you one and all!

Let me digress a bit. Last Sunday I put 20 rounds through a .338 Winchester Mag at the range I belong to. They were spaced in 3 groups over the entire afternoon. Even with a Past recoil pad, my shoulder was sore, but no flinching. I was able to keep all rounds in about a 2 inch circle at 100 yards. Some of the 3-round groups looked like Mickey. I am 56 and have been shooting since about age 12. I think that the .338 is about the upper limit of the recoil that I can handle. I feel I can handle it, but think that anything much more would probably be a bit much for me. I don't think that my sons have enough shooting experience to handle the recoil.

The 180 grain to 200 grain bullet advice in 30-06 is very encouraging. I regularly load 180 grain bullets for the Ariska and the MN. I have some good accurate loads already for these cartridges. I was attracted by the Woodleigh 215 grain bullets because of their African 303 Brit reputation for incredible penetration and bone busting ability. Again, handloaded Arisaka and MN rounds are pretty close to the 30-06.

This is very encouraging. I will look at some 200 grain premium bullets as well as some premium 180 grain bullets and see the largest I can get accurate loads and that my two sons can handle. Thanks again!

killdeer · « **Reply #10 on:** January 30, 2006, 08:56:01 PM »

Robert357,
you have gotten some great advice.
It might be a good idea to have your sons shoot the 338 at the range,perhaps without alot of emphasis on recoil beforehand.
You may just be surprised. Some guys take to recoil like a duck takes to water.

Have a great outing with your sons.

KD

Slamfire · « **Reply #11 on:** January 31, 2006, 03:43:22 PM »

Quote from: Daveinthebush

Quote
I doubt you'll need those extremely heavy bullets, the 180 .30-06 has taken an elephant or two.

While this is true! Elephants don't have bad breath and claws.

Ring the dinner bell and they will come. That is the reason for mainly being overgunned up here.

Don't carry enough gun for what you are hunting, carry enough gun for what may be hunting you. :biggun:

No the don't have claws but being impaled upon a single tooth has much the same effect on your life insurance policy. :roll:

Daveinthebush · « **Reply #12 on:** January 31, 2006, 03:56:24 PM »

Quote

No the don't have claws but being impaled upon a single tooth has much the same effect on your life insurance policy.

This is true but I think I'd be more afraid of being stomped into a mud ball. I have seen a couple of elephant maulings on TV from elephants gone beserk. Not pretty when you piss them off.

Robert357 · « **Reply #13 on:** January 31, 2006, 07:46:57 PM »

Thanks guys, I promise I will not hunt any elephants in Alaska with a 30-06! Cross my heart and hope to die!

Actually I was thinking about the advice on loading my .338 Win Mag down a little and the advice about letting my two sons try it out at the range.

It wouldn't be that hard to down load it a bit and it would still pack more power than a 30-06 with a large premium bullet. I just may give that a try.

Again, great advice.

nasem · « **Reply #14 on:** February 01, 2006, 08:43:46 AM »

The amount of firepower you have is enough to pretty much handle ANYTHING that walks this earth..... there is not much I can tell you, you have the 2 most popular calibers (06' and 338 wm) and you seem to be very comfortable shooting them,

My only advice to you is, I wouldn't get a 300 win mag if your going to hunt large bears(over 800 lbs), 30 caliber bullets traveling at high speeds is not recommended on the thick-skinned-dangerous type. The only advice I can tell you, and this is only valid IF YOUR THINKING OF GETTING A NEW RIFLE, ever thought about the 375 h&h ?, recoil wise, it is not going to be worse than your 338 win mag. Think about it, 30-06, 338 win mag, AND now, 375 h&h (oh my god, all that firepower is making me... DAMN IT I WANT A 338 WIN MAG NOW

, I have the other 2)

kombi1976 · « **Reply #15 on:** February 02, 2006, 12:46:04 PM »

Sounds like your line up is good, at least as far as I can see.
The 215gn Woodleighs have an excellent reputation here in Australia.
In Guns & Game, an Aussie hunting magazine, a guy had a No1 Mk3 modified to a sporter i.e. walnut classic stock, shortened the bbl to 22" & recrowned and scoped.
It grouped .75" at 100yds over the hood of a car using the 215gn RNSNs.
They're an excellent choice for the Arisaka and would have the power to do significant damage to really big game.
I'd give the big bears a miss but it'd be "Goodnight Nurse!!" for anything else up there! :mrgreen:

Sorry....I forgot.
If you have fears about not finding ammo, especially for the Arisaka, have you considered getting a couple of Lee Loaders, particularly for the Arisaka & taking them & taking some reloading components with you to the lodge?
That way if you need to get some more ammo because you lost your supply off a cliff or in the forest some where you can just knock together 10 or 20 rounds of your most accurate load back at camp ready for the next days hunting.
I know 7.7 Arisaka isn't listed in the Lee catalog for Loaders but often the factory makes non-catalog stuff and I'm pretty sure a place here in Oz included the 7.7 Jap Lee Loader as an available item.
And if they don't do a loader a hand press with the standard dies is also another option.
Could save you heaps of trouble. :wink:
Just an idea.

Robert357 · « **Reply #16 on:** February 02, 2006, 06:28:57 PM »

kombi;

I have a feeling that in some respects we are kindred spirts in this journey.

I have a classic Lee Loader for both my Arisaka and my MN. I have found that for milsurp rounds necksizing really helps preserve brass and also improves the loads. So many milsurps have very generously cut chambers that it is the real way to go.

I was turned on to neck sizing with a Lee Loader and depriming with my press, bullet seating with my reloading press and then ocasionally using my Lee factory crimp die.

I learned about this modified approach from the following website
http://www3.sympatico.ca/shooters/303Page.htm

Yes the Woodleigh 215 grain bullet in .312 inch diameter sounds pretty impressive. I am looking forward to loading some for both my Arisaka and my MN 1891/30. It looks like the load at the right velocity should be in most things as far as penetration.

Daveinthebush · « **Reply #17 on:** February 02, 2006, 06:40:54 PM »

Quote

Sorry....I forgot.
If you have fears about not finding ammo, especially for the Arisaka, have you considered getting a couple of Lee Loaders, particularly for the Arisaka & taking them & taking some reloading components with you to the lodge?

You can only take on a airplane, ammunition that is in a factory box. Although, reloaded ammunition in a plastic box has been accepted flying within the state of Alaska.

You will not be able to take reloading supplies (powder and primers) with you on any plane. Not even paying hazmat. It is a waste of valuable luggage poundage. Most planes limit you to 50 pounds and number of bags. Anything over and you will pay. The farther you get from a major airline and the smaller the plane the lessor the allowed baggage weight.

When I went back to NY last fall to deer hunt, I sent a box of hunting clothes ahead by about 2 weeks to keep my poundage down on the plane. You might be able to send a box to the lodge if the owner is in agreement.

kombi1976 · « **Reply #18 on:** February 04, 2006, 04:01:01 AM »

Quote from: Robert357

kombi;
I have a feeling that in some respects we are kindred spirts in this journey.

Well, I can only be envious of the opportunity you have here, both to hunt some serious game, and to do it with your sons.
My boys are really young, 2 years and 12 weeks respectively, so they're not even at the "You hold the rifle like this, aim carefully and squeeze the trigger" stage.
Plus I'm a bit of a green horn myself but I'm enthusiastic so I'm trying to do some catching up on those who were fortunate to have a father who took them hunting.

Quote from: Robert357

I have a classic Lee Loader for both my Arisaka and my MN. I have found that for milsurp rounds necksizing really helps preserve brass and also improves the loads. So many milsurps have very generously cut chambers that it is the real way to go.

The Lee Loaders are excellent pieces of kit.
They've got to be the best neck sizing package on the market for the guy who already has a FL set and isn't worried about "F-Class" loads.
Guys here in Australia take them out into the back of beyond when they're hunting dingos, camels and donkeys in the desert so they can assemble new ammo should the tally be higher than they expected.
I bought one for a mate who'd just purchased his first centerfire(M96 sporter in 6.5x55) and also scored a 2nd hand loading block, powder scale & funnel for him so he could start loading for it.
Again, it has the big military chamber and he's trying his hand already.
It has the added advantage of being easy to lock away from his 2 1/2 y.o. son who gets into everything.

Quote from: Robert357

I was turned on to neck sizing with a Lee Loader and depriming with my press, bullet seating with my reloading press and then ocasionally using my Lee factory crimp die.

I learned about this modified approach from the following website
http://www3.sympatico.ca/shooters/303Page.htm

303british.com is an excellent site.
Lot's of interesting stuff there.
I'm particularly interest in the Canadian wildcat, the 303 Epps Improved, for which Steve Redgewell has listed data.
I think a nice Martini Enfield rechambered and re-furbished would be the perfect rifle for this cartridge.
The beauty, of course, is that you can still shoot standard ammo in it, same as an Ackley chambering, and you might even be able to neck resize it with a standard Lee Loader in 303 British.
Mind you I'm not totally sure of this.
And yeah, older tapered military cartridges like the 303 may stretch but they aren't NEARLY as disposable as some people would have you believe. :?
People just don't prep & size them correctly. :|

Quote from: Robert357

Yes the Woodleigh 215 grain bullet in .312 inch diameter sounds pretty impressive. I am looking forward to loading some for both my Arisaka and my MN 1891/30. It looks like the load at the right velocity should be in most things as far as penetration.

That Woodleigh bullet design is just one of many that are fascinating.
My next experimentation with Woodleigh projectiles will be the 8mm 250gn RNSN in my K98 8x57 sporter.
It'll probably kick a bit but at mid range on a big sambar or red deer......OUCH!! :eek: :mrgreen:
But the .312" 215gn bullet is on my list as I intend to pick up a Martini 303 later in the year or next year.
I bought a 2nd hand RCBS 2-die FL sizing set in 303 Brit for $20 so it would be morally wrong not to own a funky rifle in that cal....... :lol:
And of course, I'll be getting a Lee Loader in 303 as well. :wink:
But I digress.

Brithunter · « **Reply #19 on:** February 06, 2006, 11:07:22 AM »

Hi Kombi,

Ahhhhhhhhh you mean something like this :-

Martini Muscat sporting carbine .303 bore.

This is a 303 Improved, not an Epps as it has a shorter neck for even more powder capacity.

Just thought I would make you drool a little :twisted: :wink:

kombi1976 · « **Reply #20 on:** February 06, 2006, 02:55:08 PM »

Quote from: Brithunter

Hi Kombi, Just thought I would make you drool a little :twisted: :wink:

You evil little man! :evil:
You've succeeded in your dastardly plan! :x :cry:
Where did you get that BTW?
Is the Muscat chambered to 303 Imp?
If not what is chamber for it?

simplicity · « **Reply #21 on:** February 14, 2006, 08:53:02 AM »

I just read all the posts and I'd thought I throw mine in on the subject. I've been shooting a remington 700 bdl in 338 win. mag for 17 years now. Remember you can go below 210 grains I've had alot of good luck with 180 grainers. Take a look at the barnes bullets you can even go down to 160's though I've never tryed them to see how accuate they are but a 180 at 3200fps honestly to me is no different then shooting a 06 with a maxed out 200 or 220 from the offhand position. My favorite bullet as of now I would have to say is the accubond which you can get in 180's now I haven't shot the 180's but I have shot alot of the 225's. The 225 is very accurate. I hope this has helped in some way. My vote is with the 338.

SUSQUASH · « **Reply #22 on:** February 14, 2006, 10:29:09 AM »

Ask Thebear_78 how a 9.3x62 Mauser works on Moose. Had one made for him for his birthday this year. He took it out and connected with a nice spike/fork bull moose with it. Another caliber you may want to look at is the .35 Whelen-a bit bigger bullet than the '06 but a proven Alaska rifle.