how much difference 223 AI and 222 Mag.

[oso45-70]

Been wondering how much difference there is between the 223 Ackley Improved and the 222 Mag.

                           ..............Joe ..............

[onecoyote]

A 222 mag is nothing more then a 223. A 223 Ackley would be faster, that's about it. I thought you'd know that? Or are you trying to bait someone lol.

[oso45-70]

A 222 mag is nothing more then a 223. A 223 Ackley would be faster, that's about it. I thought you'd know that? Or are you trying to bait someone lol.

Oh you wiley Koyote, How perseptive of you !!!, Actually I thought we needed more room, About to run the others into the ground. And yes i know the differences in about all the 22 center fire rifle loadings, Remember I'am an old man who has been at this for a long time and have had just about all the concoctions dreamed up by some of the best Speed kings in the country. Po Ackley, CH Helbig, Lovell, Bill Atkinson, Mashburn,, Warren Page to name a few of the old timmers in the wildcatters Society. There was a bunch of the old wildcats built on Rimmed cartridges. And speaking of rimmed cartridges, When the 225 Win came out i had one of the first and it was one of the best i ever shot.
Enough of that ...........Joe..........

[Glanceblamm]

Been wondering how much difference there is between the 223 Ackley Improved and the 222 Mag.

Great reading as usual and a fair question as well as a breath of fresh air as intended. I always thought the 222 Mag was a bit hotter than a reg .223

I dont own any of the Ackley Improved. Heard it could be a real bear to do on that little .223 chamber. What I want to know is what the original intend was for?
My understanding was that you could get another 150fps after Ackley but the real savings was in lower pressures & extended case life.?

P.S. I have been regressing in the other direction boy's. Am considering a
.22 hornet for next years coyotes. Especially after seeing what the .204 does to them.

[oso45-70]

Glanceblamm

You were right, The222 Mag. is hotter than the 223 by quite a bit and a little longer. The case of the 223 is 1.750 and the 222 Mag. is 1.840 and falls in between the 222REM ane the 219 Ddonaldson Wasp and Winchester 219 Zipper. For years the 22-250 or 22 Varminter was the king of the hill onless you consider 229 Clark which was a lot hotter but took a slightly larger bullet which was custom made, It was a true.229 dia bullet. You will in fact get better case life with the AI 223 because of the faster shoulder.

If you get a 22 hornet you will love it NO recoil, No noise Great gun.
      Have a good one...........Joe.........

[roper]

Glanceblamm

You were right, The222 Mag. is hotter than the 223 by quite a bit and a little longer. The case of the 223 is 1.750 and the 222 Mag. is 1.840 and falls in between the 222REM ane the 219 Ddonaldson Wasp and Winchester 219 Zipper. For years the 22-250 or 22 Varminter was the king of the hill onless you consider 229 Clark which was a lot hotter but took a slightly larger bullet which was custom made, It was a true.229 dia bullet. You will in fact get better case life with the AI 223 because of the faster shoulder.

If you get a 22 hornet you will love it NO recoil, No noise Great gun.
      Have a good one...........Joe.........

Joe, I just wanting to know how much hotter your 222mag is over your 223 in real world velocity? How do you consider the 22-250/22 varminter was king of the hill since the 220 swift came out in 1935?  In the real world of shooting how many more firing with a 223AI case over a 223?
Remember I'm an old man who lives in the real wildcat world and shoots a 222,222AI,223,223AI,222mag,22-250,22-250AI,6x47,6x250 etc.  I'm with ONECOYOTE seems like your just trying to bait some

[oso45-70]

Roper

Good morning to ya, Went fishing and got a bite. Well to start with theres not enough difference in the 222 or 223, 222mag or the 223 Ai to make a hill of beans, Same goes for a lot of the other 22 center fire loads. I just get a kick out of listening to some of the Official users of said rounds and marvel at the knowledge they have accquired. And by the way I left out the 220 Swift to see if any one was paying attention and sure enough some one was. There are a lot of people that don't know the 220 Swift started out life as a rimmed cartridge and was played with until the Lee Navy round was picked to play the part of parenting the 220 as we know it today. Thank you sir for the reply and by the way I'am not responsible for spelling do to a 7th grade drop out. Have a good day ..........Joe...........

[kyote]

you forgot the King of speed oso4570..

22-243 MIDDLESTEAD :lol:

I sent off to Or. the other day to have a  custom reamer made in to .222remington mag ackley improved.for my .222 remington magnum that I have in a custom rem.700 ssfv model.
today with modern powders and improvement to exsisting powder,primers and other components.to include barrles and brass.most people should get up dated load manuals.
they have this new thing that is cheap enough for most folks to afford if they found the need called chronographs.they measure the speed of bullets exiting the barrels of firearms.heck they can even tell ya the velocity of a BB gun and arrows leaving a bow.
and with the way lawyers have them writing up the modern loading manual.and the revamt of SAMMI specs.you can find having these modern up todate items a great asset as you can really go above published data safley and into speeds that most will never see as they will not venture to these area as they feel it is un safe. (heck,a lot of the old manuals are unsafe.ie:lyman cast bullets and some of the jacketed bullet lyman manuals.try loading some of Elmer Kieth's published data for his .357 and 44 mag.you will wish you did not.)
Oh, and the data for the .22 cheeta should blow the doors off all the rounds you listed also.but,that one might not be in any of the out dated loading manuals either.  :lol:  
 :-D  

[kyote]

:lol: he he he..I almost forgot..if ya old fossils would stop loadin with cordite ya might catch up to the AI velocitys..ahar har har...

[oso45-70]

Kyote

Are you saying my ( Lyman#1 ) is ouy of date? surley you jest.
And whats this thing you call a Chronograph ? Is it like a speedometer for bullets ? Say how about a 244 H&H 300 mag, would this new fangled thing tell me how fast my bullets are going, And what does Over bore mean. Boy i do need help. Its a darn good thing you slipped in here otherwise i would have been totally lost just like last years easter egg. I have it from a good source that you are kind and giving person, Would you please send me all the information i need to catch up with all you real shooters and handloaders. I would be forever grateful and be sure to leave you some thing for your effort, I will start making out my will so it will be here when the stuff gets here, Thank you in advance. He He He Take care     .......Joe.............

[kyote]

he he he..its on its way..But do you have room...  :lol:

[Glanceblamm]

roper Wrote:

Joe, I just wanting to know how much hotter your 222mag is over your 223 in real world velocity? How do you consider the 22-250/22 varminter was king of the hill since the 220 swift came out in 1935? In the real world of shooting how many more firing with a 223AI case over a 223?
Remember I'm an old man who lives in the real wildcat world and shoots a 222,222AI,223,223AI,222mag,22-250,22-250AI,6x47,6x250 etc. I'm with ONECOYOTE seems like your just trying to bait some

Roper
Other that mentioning that the swift coming out in 1935 it doesnt appear to be in your arsenal.
Was the Swift's real claim to fame the light (38gr?) bullet?
Is it no better than the .22-250 when loaded with 55gr bullets?
And Finally
Did You, Joe, Onecoyote, Kyote or others ever own the Carmichael/Harris AKA .22 CHeeta? I never did hear much feed back on that one.

[Glanceblamm]

kyote wrote:

and some of the jacketed bullet lyman manuals

Kyote
This does seem to be true with my Lyman #11
Seems to call for alot of powder and a lower velocity.
22gr of 2400 in a .45 Colt all @ under 1,100fps  :eek: Ouch!

[Game_Stalker]

Just a curiosity, but has anybody ever shot a .224 Stark? and if so, how did it compare with other 22 caliber rounds?

[oso45-70]

Just a curiosity, but has anybody ever shot a .224 Stark? and if so, how did it compare with other 22 caliber rounds?

Game_Stalker

I don't recall ever seeing anything about the 224 Stalker but there are plenty of people that have developed  a special case,load combination That we never hear about. Do you happen to know what the parent case was?

No. I have not had the opportunity to shoot the 224 Stark, There may be some of the guys here that have done so though. Have a good day Sir ......Joe.....

[Game_Stalker]

The .224 Stark is a .44 Magnum case necked down to .224 caliber. Kinda like a WSSSM. And look at that speed... If a TC Encore barrel didn't cost $700+ to have made, I'd have one by now.

"The .224 Stark was originated by Jess L. Stark of The Shooter's Supply in Houston Texas.

It is made by necking down the .44 Remington Magnum revolver cartridge. Forming is done in three dies after annealing. Case life is supposed to be extremely long and the increased body taper results in easy extraction. It was developed to use in small single shot actions. Chamber reamers are available from Clymer and RCBS list case forming and reloading dies in their catalog.

(Source: Handbook for Shooters and Reloaders Vol. II)"

-http://ammoguide.com/?catid=416-

Using 23 grains of IMR-4198, this round will push a 40 gr bullet at 3,825fps. Now compare that to the .223 WSSM pushing the same size bullet at 4,301 fps using 50.5 grains of H-414. The WSSM is still king of speed here, and you only gain an extra 125 fps using the same load in a standard .223, but what a fun round that one must be. If I ever hit the lottery, I'd have one made. Until then, I'll stick with my standard .223 barrel.

[roper]

Roper
Other that mentioning that the swift coming out in 1935 it doesnt appear to be in your arsenal.
Was the Swift's real claim to fame the light (38gr?) bullet?
Is it no better than the .22-250 when loaded with 55gr bullets?
And Finally
Did You, Joe, Onecoyote, Kyote or others ever own the Carmichael/Harris AKA .22 CHeeta? I never did hear much feed back on that one.[/quote]
I didn't want to muddy up the waters but since you asked I shoot the 220 Swift,22BR,6BRshortentalldog,22Walldog,6BR,6mmAI,6x284 and 6.5x264 plus others.  
On the average when I do an Ackley round the gain is between 150/200fps.  
I got a bunch of the REM BR cases was going to build the Cheeta but heard some strange things about using the small primer pocket for the Cheeta.  The 220 Swift is faster than a 22-250, alot still think the 220Swift is a barrel burner and the Swift was known to vaporize bullets you would see a white smoke trail about 50yds out.  Today you have better barrels and bullets.  If you look at the 22cal bullets now see a 80/90 gr may even see a 100gr bullet before long,  cases like the 243,257 etc would be a good combination.  When the 224 Clark came out was way ahead of it's time Clark had to make his own bullets back then.
Well good luck and hope I answered all your question if not be glad to answer any more if I can.

[onecoyote]

roper, I just kill predators, mostly coyotes. I don't care what caliber I kill them with.
Over the years I've used most factory varmint calibers and a few that were not factory.
Right now I'm using the 223WSSM and the 204. When you sum it all up, I'm just a kid playing with new toys. Aren't we all? lol. :wink:

[roper]

onecoyote, I hunt PD one can never have enough rifles the way I look at it.  I haven't been to sold on the 204 ruger yet thinking about a 20x250 for the 50gr bullets.  I started years ago getting rifles rebuild so now it's just the cost of new barrel and chambering maybe alittle bedding work.  I just enjoy shooting and if I could I would do it every day.  Well good luck.

[oso45-70]

Roper Yes i have shoot the220 Swift, Had two Winchester mod. 70 Early mod's Plus ane built on the A3-O3. Never had any dealings with the Cheeta, Never had one in my hands. I did make up a 22X30-40 Kraig on the old kraig action, Worked out pretty good but was a little bit scared of the old action so did'nt keep it very long, It worked fairly well with the heavier bullets. One of the most accurate rifles i have now is the T-C
6.5 JDJ with the SSK barrel 24". One hole all day long. The wife has taken it over and won't let me shoot it. With all the new offerings the Manufacturers are coming out with, Takes away from the wildcat buisness As we once knew it. I have spent many a day Sod Poodle shooting with my 219 Zipper and the 22 mashburn bee and the little K-hornet Then in 1954 i think it was the 222 Rem came out and that was just the berrys.
Good luck Sir ...........Joe,,,,,,,,,,

[roper]

oso45-70,  Todays barrels and bullets with all the barrel twist options just makes the wildcatting easy.  I like what's happened in the last 10yrs  for reloaders seems like everyone can find something they like to do or reload for.  I never worry about what a manufactor comes out with but it's good to look at what's changing with factory calibers.  I was shooting a 221 fireball custom rifle 15 yrs before Rem made a rifle in that caliber.
Guys are wildcatting the wsm case and I'm thinking of doing some on the rem short mag case.  The interest has to be there.  I've got a 1/9 twist 7mm Kreiger barrel waiting for me to decide between a 280AI,7x57AI or 7-08AI or maybe a 7RUSMAI.  I've got this project now it's a 338-270HGT got all my cases fireform now will get some loads going.   As soon as I could get my hands on some 300wsm brass I was having one build and  99.9 % of the time I'm pretty right on what I decide to have build.
I decide along time ago if I was only to have 3 rifles they would be a 222,6mmrem and 30-338mag.  My wife has a 243 and 270 that she uses, varmits she like the Volquarsten 10/22. and 17mavhIV.

[kyote]

the need for speed.since 1985 I have watched at least 6 22 cheetas get built by my bud. did all the annealing of the BR brass and the load and fire forming.am interested to know what you found out about the primers in the cheeta.My bud still has the last one he built and wants me to own it.I have been considering it.
I and a nother bud built a custom .220swift for myself.then right before we screwed the barrel on.I said we need to AI this thing.sierra said (one of the guys there)how do ya improve the swift.thats a foolish venture.well that was it. not only did I AI it but made a tight neck out of it also..rope I am sure knows how that ought ta sizzle headed down range.
I have shot filthy coyotes at extended ranges with it.and it whales em.I had this young one come in from behind once.I was facing this field that I could see forever in front of me.every thing behind me was not so good.and I put the speaker way out to the right of me.well I look over and this little coyote is all happy and dancing around the speaker kickin dirt at it.and barkin at it.I watched him for a sec and he was so close I did not really want to shoot him.(bout 50 yards)so I hollered at him and he took off running making a beline towards this small hill an he had to go down into a depression where I could not see him.so I just waited andput the cross hairs on the crest of the hill and waited for him to come it to sight.when he hit the top I shot right at the tail where it came out his body.that bullet went right into the rectum and exited the chest.taking the heart out.that dog ran 75 yards are better leaving a trail my wife could follow.well maybe not her.its a flat shootin rifle.

[roper]

the need for speed.since 1985 I have watched at least 6 22 cheetas get built by my bud. did all the annealing of the BR brass and the load and fire forming.am interested to know what you found out about the primers in the cheeta.My bud still has the last one he built and wants me to own it.I have been considering it.
The only thing I read about the  22 Cheetah II was by Layne Simpson in Wildcat Cartridge Volume 2 and he talked about hangfires if using less than 90% case capacity and using IMR-4064 in  90 degrees and having hangfire etc and what primer he recommend and I had hear story's from afew shooter about the hangfires.  So I formed some 22-250AI cases using Rem Br cases, had about 50% hangfires so decided if I was going to do one be with large primer pocket case or just do a 22-243.  I'd used some  Rem BR case in my 30x44 and 30x47 had no problems.  Well good luck.

[kyote]

Hmmm..My bud never metioned that asspect of the round.But he is in the know. that I am sure.are he would never built a rifle in that cal.they must have figured away to avoid that.and never mentioned it.I am going to ask him next time we speak.