Author Topic: sticky bolt lift on my 25 wssm (Read 1176 times)

kenscot · « **on:** February 01, 2006, 05:38:08 PM »

I recently picked up a browning a bolt in 25 wsm. I bought a box of factory ammo and shot it flalessly aveage groups just under MOA. But 31.00 a box yikes! I picked up some new brass and worked up a load of 42.5 grn. of varget , accurate load averages .5 MOA.
Here comes the problem when I ran out of the new brass I resized the brass and trimmed and reloadec with the same load. While it still shot acurately I had hard bolt lift on extraction I tryied a differant load and got the same results. I pulled the bullets to check my powder charge, no problem there. I went back and loaded a few rounds with new brass and had no problem . What could I be doing wrong. I checked my dhamber it was clean. I tooka look at my sizing die and noticed a spot on the shouolder area at first I thought it was some rust but it wipeout right away as it was a flattened pice of walnut tumbling media could this have caused my problem?

cntryboy1289 · « **Reply #1 on:** February 01, 2006, 06:04:08 PM »

High pressure is usually what causes the sticky bolt lift. When you have this though, your brass should show signs of excessive pressure. I would first double check the loads with a different loading manual as well as inspect every case and make sure you have the correct loads.

The walnut being in the die shouldn't casue a problem unless it was dinging up the brass. I would think you could find on the brass exactly where it was contacting the brass if it is enough to cause problems for you.

I would get a headspace tool and double check your reloads and make sure they are set back far enough as well. You may be loading the rounds with the shoulder being too far forward and this is causing the bolt to be stiff on closing as well as opening. I use the Wilson headspacing tools and you can find them anywhere reloading supplies are sold.

Nobade · « **Reply #2 on:** February 02, 2006, 01:50:54 AM »

Another thing that can be causing this would be a rough chamber. How does the once fired factory brass look? Does it come out with lines on it? If so, you might need to polish the chamber. I get these in the shop all the time - people think they're pressuring up too early, but once the chamber is polished and the lines are removed the cases will just drop out. If you have access to a bore scope or can make a chamber cast it's easy to tell what you have.

Lone Star · « **Reply #3 on:** February 02, 2006, 02:58:52 AM »

Your load of 42.5 grains of Varget may be too hot, depending on the bullet weight. The max load listed for 100-grain bullets is 42.8 grains Varget, and given differences in barrels, brass, powder lots and primers you could be loading to excessive pressures. I hope you are not using bullets heavier than 100 grains with that load.
http://www.hodgdon.com/data/rifle/25wssm.php

The WSSMs are already loaded very hot (65,000 psi) - trying to get "just a bit more" out of them is not like trying to improve on the .30-06 (60,000 psi). Bolt thrust with the large WSSM case is much higher than with the '06.

longgun · « **Reply #4 on:** February 02, 2006, 03:21:47 AM »

kenscot,You might want to look at the rear of the locking lugs. It might be that you need to use a dab of grease on the back of the lugs and where the cocking piece rides up in the vee on the rear of the bolt. If these are dry they may cause gauling and make the bolt hard to operate. However it usually means hard closing as well as hard opening. Does your brass have a stretch ring around the rear end of the brass? Is the rifle new? don

longgun · « **Reply #5 on:** February 02, 2006, 03:34:23 AM »

I just remembered a simular condition on a Remington that I once had. This was on a silhouette rifle that had had the bolt face trued. Also I was trying to load a little "hotter" than recommended. I had the same problems with hard bolt opening and what I finally determined was that the rear of the brass was flowing back just a small amount into the ejector pin hole and I was actually shearing a small amount the brass each time I fired a round. If the A-bolt has the same set up as a remington , take a look in this area too. Don

kenscot · « **Reply #6 on:** February 02, 2006, 12:12:55 PM »

I would understand it being a sign of high pressure but think it would effect the new unresized cases as well. The rifle is new and the bullets I am loading are 100 gr. nosler ballistic tips and barnes TSX's. The case come out looking fine with now signs of case head seperation or scratches or lines on the side of them. I did notice that some of the loaded rounds were little tougher to chamber. I am starting to believe that I did not set the shoulder back far enough even though I did the standard turn the die down an 1/8 turn after contact with the shell holder. I have always been more worried about oversizing the cases.

gunnut69 · « **Reply #7 on:** February 02, 2006, 08:41:40 PM »

Have you checked the case length to see if the cases grew a bit when fired the first time. Over long cases can cause a load to show high pressures.. The pressure signs would be there though?

kenscot · « **Reply #8 on:** February 03, 2006, 11:46:02 AM »

The cases were all trimmed to 1.66 and the bullets were no where near the lands as they would not fit in the magazine

gunnut69 · « **Reply #9 on:** February 03, 2006, 07:33:03 PM »

Is the cocking am on the bolt dry. Sometimes that can cause a difficult to open bolt. You night also checkj the cocking cam. Othewise its likely excess pressure...

kenscot · « **Reply #10 on:** February 05, 2006, 04:25:23 PM »

both were lubed and I reduced the powder charge as well as trying two different powders. The part that really seems strange is that no matter what load was used the bolt lift was fine with new brass but once I get into second and third loadingsthat is where the bolt becomes tough.
I would have thought if a load had excessive pressure it would show from the beginning.

cntryboy1289 · « **Reply #11 on:** February 05, 2006, 05:53:17 PM »

Are you having any difficulty loading the rounds? This would ba an indcator that the shoulder needs pusing back further. If not, I would use a paperclip straightened out with a very short hook to drag alonf the inside of the brass and check to see if the case's are stretching on you. You should be able to feel a difference between a new round a a stretched one.

Lone Star · « **Reply #12 on:** February 06, 2006, 03:38:48 AM »

From the latest remarks it appears clear to me the the problem is an oversize chamber/oversize FL die. The brass is likely expanding in diameter above the head but the sizing die is not reducing the case back to a small enough diameter to fit the chamber. Alternatively the die may be too long/chamber too long, and the die would not be sizing the case shoulder back far enough. If new brass works fine, then the problem is most likely the fault of the resizing operation. Smoke the case shoulder and body, chamber the cartridge, and see where the tight spots are.

gunnut69 · « **Reply #13 on:** February 06, 2006, 11:14:28 AM »

The resizing die/chamber problem would be possible if the problem wasn't with a sticky lift on fired cases. He never saaid anything anou difficulty on extracting an unfired loaded round. It's possible the brass is bad. Unlikely but possible. Have the primer pockets remained snug or have they loosened? If the case head brass is a bit soft the head can expand and the standard sizer won't resize that far down.. It would explain the new brass being OK as the first firing would bring the cases to chamber diameter, the second firing would case expansion the soft caseheads couldn't spring back from.. Hard a similar problem with some Norma 222 Rem brass, a long long time ago.. To check measure some unfired loaded rounds..(factory) then some once fired and then the 2nd/3rd firings etc. Measure BELOW the marks on the case that show the llower limit of the sizers working area.. Casehead expansion should remain stabil after the first firing unless the load is over pressure or the brass casehead material is too soft..

Lone Star · « **Reply #14 on:** February 07, 2006, 04:22:44 AM »

Quote

The resizing die/chamber problem would be possible if the problem wasn't with a sticky lift on fired cases. He never saaid anything anou difficulty on extracting an unfired loaded round...

No, but he did say this:

Quote

I did notice that some of the loaded rounds were little tougher to chamber.

This indicates a problem with the loaded cases. If they are tight going in, after firing they should be tighter coming back out...

kenscot · « **Reply #15 on:** February 07, 2006, 05:49:46 PM »

Lone Star is correct I did notice some rounds were a little tougher to chamder until I changed from a1/8 to 1/4 turn down on the resizing die.
this did eliminate that plus give me an extra loading before the bolt handle became tough.
Gunnut I am not seeing any real differance in case measurements only from the new unfired one. I have had a few other rifles that that had pressure signs but it never mattered the age of the brass.New cases would show it just as easy as older ones ones would

gunnut69 · « **Reply #16 on:** February 08, 2006, 02:49:33 PM »

If the cases are sized to go in the chamber they will extract.. If there is resistance above the norm it must be something that happens at firing. Since the sizer is returning the cases to a dimension that allows them to be chambered the only part of the case that isn't sized is the head.. Have you checked to see what is binding. Color a fired case with a marker(permanent) and reinsert it into the chambe.. Where is the marker curnished off. Extractor mark on the extractor groove?

kenscot · « **Reply #17 on:** February 09, 2006, 03:25:20 PM »

Well I tried marking the cases to day and most of the ink was removed from the face of the case head and half way around the rim of the head . what do you think this is telling me? For the heck of it I called RCBS and explained my problem and they told meto send them five fired cases that have not been resized and the sizing die

gunnut69 · « **Reply #18 on:** February 09, 2006, 07:15:56 PM »

If the ink was removed from the face the case was being forced into the chamber and the bolt face was generating resistance. Was the bolt stiff to close AND open? If they can fix it RCBS most certainly will. Good luck and keep us informed.

kenscot · « **Reply #19 on:** February 13, 2006, 02:46:56 PM »

gunnut
Yes the cases were a little tough to chamber as well as extract. I assume you mean the cases you suggested that inked. The sad or funny part of this project is this rifle was bought to replace the 243 that now seems fine since remington rebarreled it. I guess it's always something :x

gunnut69 · « **Reply #20 on:** February 13, 2006, 02:58:52 PM »

Sounds as if you have a headspace problem. Could be caused by a bad die or a bad chamber?? Pressure on the case face is normal but having to force the case into the chamber is not... bet RCBS fixes the problem.. Let us know what they do.. It doesn't sound like a reason to sell the rifle to me!! at least not yet..

kenscot · « **Reply #21 on:** February 17, 2006, 02:22:25 PM »

Well for the heck of I gave sierra a call to see if they could give me help with this before I ship the dies. One of their techs , Dave was his name (very helpful) said it might be a couple of thins or a combo ( some were already mentioned here) he said it could be a rough chamber and or soft brass.
Apparently they have run into the brass problem before. He said that they had made some brass that was so hard that it was not expandig to fill the chamber and guys were getting hit with gasesand then they over compensated and made some that was to soft. He said that more of the problem brass was in the 22 & 243 WSSM but had heard of it in the 25's too.
Now polishing a chamber is this a hard thing to do?

kenscot · « **Reply #22 on:** February 19, 2006, 03:02:11 AM »

Well I tried some different brass and got the same results. I did not try to polish the chamber yet. While cleaning the rifle I did notice some thing a little odd. The half of the face of the ejector is bevelled now I looked at the 5 other Abolts I own and the ejectors are all flat so I am not sure if this by design for WSSM's or flaw.

gunnut69 · « **Reply #23 on:** February 20, 2006, 08:51:37 PM »

I'd bet it's a chamber/die thing.. Rough chambers may cause hard opening but not usually hard closing.. Also the soft brass thing is possible but you should also be having expanded primer pockets.. Polishing a chamber is fairly simple or at least burnishing is.. Use steel wool wrapped around a dowel, roughen the dowel a bit to allow the wool to grab it and layer it on slowly. Be sure to turn the resulting bob in the same direction as it was when wrapping. A bit of oil will smooth the effect.. Metal is not really removed just the roughness is burnished. The effect can make a big difference. Turn the bob with an electric drill motor.