Author Topic: cases hard to size-the die, the rifle, the reloader? (Read 902 times)

bluebayou · « **on:** March 05, 2006, 01:34:21 PM »

So, I am having trouble full length sizing cases. The new, once fired brass in particular. I have problems getting the right amount of lube on 2-4 times fired brass occassionally, too. What am I doing wrong? Could my rifle's chamber be too big? This is Winchester brass.

The facts:
I use RCBS full length die to size, tried a Hornady full length die and it will NOT work. Couldn't get the cases into the die. I chalked this up to a bad die (it was used), now not sure.

Once fired brass either sticks in die or I get oil dents, no middle ground.

2-4 time fired brass is alot easier to size and hasn't been denting as much at all

The cases jam in the sizing die consistently with 1/8" of the neck sized and 1/4 of case left outside the base of the die.

I trim on once fired but not so much on 2-4 times.

The case lube is old, hand me down bottle of Redding. Should probably get new stock thinking about it.

Any ideas?

cheatermk3 · « **Reply #1 on:** March 05, 2006, 02:57:30 PM »

The trouble you're describing sounds like the lube is the problem. If a case will start into the die you should be able to size it unless there is something preventing it fdrom going all the way into the die, like having the expander/decapping rod adjusted too far down.

I am not familiar with redding lube, whatever it is you should get rid of it and get some new stuff. Nothing is more frustrating to me than having to remove a stuck case from a sizing die.

I like the spray-on type case lube. The old pad-and-goo types are messy and it's easy to get too much on the case; they are slow too.

The Frankford arsenal spray-on lube is what I currently use, one bottle will easily do 1000-+ 30-06 size cases. It is basicly lanolin mixed with solvent, probably alcohol, to make it sprayable. Be sure to shake the container before each use. I get this stuff from Midway.

You simply put a single layer of cases in a box-I like to use one 12"X12" with 3-4" high sides; I tape the top flaps of the box to the inside and the bottom flaps down, to keep cases from "hiding"under them, then I line the box with a paper towel; put a handful of cases into the box and squirt a shot of lube onto the cases, which should be lying on their sides, but don't necessarily HAVE to be since this type of lube "migrates" over the case. Shake the box a bit, then give them another shot or 2. Pour the cases into another container, and repeat until all your cases are done. You want to wait 10 minutes for the solvent part of the lube to evaporate before you begin sizing cases. If it ain't dry you will stick a case. You want to use this type of lube in a well-ventilated area like the garage or shop, unless you really like the smell of alcohol.

This stuff also works great on the necks, the insides of which should be lubed too. Simply shake the box with the cases in it so that most of them are standing mouth-up, and spray a bit into them. You don't need to get them all since the lube will coat the expander ball after the first lubed case is expanded; don't overdo this as a little bit goes a long way.

After sizing, trim to length if needed and scrape the primer pockets clean of the primer residue, which is very abrasive.

Tumble the cases in clean(or pretty clean) corncob to remove the residual lube and grit, shavings, etc., and they are ready to refill.

For small batches I use Imperial sizing die wax which is applied to the cases individually by simply getting a very small amount on the thumb and forefinger of the hand youpick up cases with to put them into the shell holder. This stuff is also available from Midway; I don't know how much it costs nowadays since the 2 tins of it I bought 6 years ago are still almost full--I'm about 1/2 way through the first one

trotterlg · « **Reply #2 on:** March 05, 2006, 03:32:01 PM »

An easy thing to try is buy some synthedic motor oil, not part synthedic, 100%. Lube the case with that and see how it works for you . Larry

shaner · « **Reply #3 on:** March 05, 2006, 03:38:07 PM »

ive had this problem and ill bet it is the lube as mine was , i stopped using the two lubes i had and went to hornady spray lube havent had the problem since, i stopped using the lubes i had an wentto the hornady, and the case before i sprayed them was hard to size the next one with spray lube worked fine ,havent looked back since

bluebayou · « **Reply #4 on:** March 05, 2006, 03:46:49 PM »

Thanks for the quick replies. If anyone has any ideas other than caselube then please chime in. I will try one of the spray lubes in any event.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #5 on:** March 05, 2006, 03:54:17 PM »

I'll have to recommend the Hornady One Shot, too, great stuff!! I just lay all my brass in a paper box lid, spray once down the row on the case body, then back at an angle to get inside the case necks, roll the brass 180 degrees, then repeat. Let it dry a minute and they're ready to go. Works for me!!!

Tim

cheatermk3 · « **Reply #6 on:** March 05, 2006, 04:21:51 PM »

I stopped using the Hornady stuff because I still got an occasional stuck case. I think it was because I either didn't wait long enough for the stuff to dry, or else I wasn't applying it evenly enough. Also, if you're not careful with how you hold the can using the Hornady stuff you can run out of propellant gas before the lube is gone, leaving you with a partial can that's unusable. I've done this a couple of times. Thinking on it now, it may be that the times I stuck a case using the Hornady lube I might have been spraying propellant with no lube, due to the orientation of the can.

The Dillon, Frankford arsenal, and other liquid lubes will spread themselves evenly over the cases.

The liquid lubes come in a finger-pump type plastic spray bottle that you can use at any angle and get every drop of lube out of. Plus, they're a bit less expensive too. the disadvantage, if you want to call it that, is you should tumble the cases after using the liquids, especially if you lube the inside of the necks, and are going to store the loaded ammo for any period of time as opposed to shooting them up right away, like in the next week or so. I believe that the Hornady stuff is supposed to be less likely to degrade priming and/or powder.

For me, I think that if you're doing more than a few tens of cases, the liquids are the only way to go.

Paul5388 · « **Reply #7 on:** March 05, 2006, 05:05:02 PM »

Right now, I'm trying to think of a case I full length resize. A case can never grow larger than the chamber unless there is frame/receiver flex or the expander ball is pulling the case longer. Therefore, on bottlenecked cases I use Lee collet neck sizing dies whenever they are avaiable or I set the FL sizing die to only neck size.

A can of Lyman spray has lasted me several years and gives me much better results than Imperial Sizing Wax. Of course, you can go to Wallie World and get some Kiwi neutral shoe polish and do as good as Imperial for a whole lot less money. Other people use Johnson's Paste Wax that has about 30% paraffin and 10% carnauba in a hydrocarbon solvent (according to their MSDS). A one pound can of Johnson's is $4.98 at Wallie World, it is good for external metal and wood surface protection and it works as a bullet lube too.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #8 on:** March 05, 2006, 07:29:41 PM »

I've used Hornady One Shot for quite some time..and is great stuff..it's easy to use and as with anyother type of spray can...shake it after a few sprays..and you shouldn't have any problem..then you can retire all your roll pads..

Mac

mt3030 · « **Reply #9 on:** March 05, 2006, 08:17:39 PM »

I've used the Hornady One Shot ever since it came out. I think Mike is right. Only times I've had issues is when I failed to shake first or failed to let it dry completely. I use a shallow pie plate to lay my cases in, leaving enough room to roll the cases around. Spray one side, then roll around to get the other side up. Spray again, using angle to get the case mouths slightly. Let dry. Using a pan allows the cases to pick up any over-spray that goes between your cases as they are rolled around. Also, after doing your periodic die cleaning, spray the insde of your die. Helps get it going again in avoiding stuck cases.
Wally

safetysheriff · « **Reply #10 on:** March 06, 2006, 11:52:36 AM »

isn't there a warning on the Hornady can about flammability or some other hazard with that aerosol? i don't use it, though i was given a can.

i use various, 100 % synthetic oils -- including the generic wal mart synthetic which they call 'super tech' -- and they work Very Well. i wash the cases clean in hot water with lemon ajax dish detergent and have no problems with oil residue.

i'd clean all your dies out with Hoppe's #9 or Marvel Mystery Oil or a good grade of penetrating oil, and then start with a new case lube.

good luck,

ss'

quickdtoo · « **Reply #11 on:** March 06, 2006, 12:37:10 PM »

I just looked on both of my cans, there's no warnings on there that any responsible adult shouldn't be able to handle, same kinda consumer warnings that are on typical household cleaning products, it is flammable, no surprise there.

Tim

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=438512

Winter Hawk · « **Reply #12 on:** March 06, 2006, 01:23:12 PM »

Okay, I'm going to be different. I use the Lee lube and it works great for .30-06, .308 and .30-30 for full length resizing. I use the Lee hand press for this with Lee dies. However, most of my reloading is done with a Lyman 310 tool which neck sizes only. After neck sizing I run the brass through the action to make sure it hasn't stretched too much to work. If the action doesn't close the shell gets set aside for full length sizing.

A thought I had on this, is whether the expanding button is far enough inside the case? I could see it being out and having the case pinch between the constriction to swage it down and the expander button which increases the neck to the proper inside dimension.

You might also want to clean the die out thoroughly with solvent (brake cleaner comes to mind). Could be some crud in there blocking the shell.

-WH-

Robert · « **Reply #13 on:** March 06, 2006, 02:27:17 PM »

Two things come to mind for me.
#1. Is your brass stretching way beyond normal when you re-size the brass? Do you need to trim a lot for proper case-length? Have you checked?
#2. Take a fired case that you have not yet re-sized and lay it out on a surface that you know is flat.....roll the cartridge, and check that it does not have bulges. It should be straight and true....even if it is tapered. If it does not lay flat from shoulder to web...then you could have a 'ringed' or 'swelled' chamber. This will be really hard to run through the die.

bluebayou · « **Reply #14 on:** March 07, 2006, 01:06:05 PM »

Interesting. I will try to find an unsized case. I threw out a bunch because I kept sticking them in the die. My concern is that the neck is blowing out bigger than SAAMI should let it.

As to the trimming, that has been a concern in the back of my head too. Once fired Winchester needs trimming and then skip and then trim on third. Can't remember on the Remington. I know that it is enough to make 360 degree curls of brass when trimming. With the 223 it was just 90 degree or so shavings.

Longwinters ? got me thinking one day about headspace and all with this rifle. I see alot of die marks on the brass after sizing. I have a bright ring at the web but have tried the paperclip test and all. Have loaded the first batch of Winchester 5-6 times without a hitch. This new batch of Winchester wouldn't size for anything.

??Maybe the brass is just poor brass.

I will roll some on the tabletop and look for a swell.

cheatermk3 · « **Reply #15 on:** March 07, 2006, 03:21:16 PM »

Forgive me if I missed your posting it but what caliber are we talking about here?

bluebayou · « **Reply #16 on:** March 07, 2006, 03:59:53 PM »

7mm-08

cheatermk3 · « **Reply #17 on:** March 08, 2006, 07:11:36 AM »

So, Blue, when you say "once fired winchester brass", you are referring to spent brass from factory ammo that was fired in your chamber, right?

If this is true, then will a fired case from this ammo fit back into the chamber and the gun lock up? Does it need to be put back in the chamber in the same orientation as when it was fired?

The reason I'm asking this is that I'm wondering if factory ammo might be a bit hot for your rifle. Spring in your action may be distorting the brass making it hard to size; fired brass from your rifle should fit back into the chamber and allow lockup with no problem. Brass from once-fired factory ammo correct for your rifle should not need to be trimmed after re-sizing the first time.

bluebayou · « **Reply #18 on:** March 08, 2006, 10:43:24 AM »

When I say once fired I mean new brass sized, loaded, and fired by me one time. Honestly, again, I hadn't thought to rechamber a fired piece of brass. I will do that too.

corelokt308win · « **Reply #19 on:** March 08, 2006, 10:59:07 AM »

One question, unless I missed this, is what rifle are you shooting it in? An outoloader, handi-rifle or bolt? Auto's and handi's flex the actions more.
I was denting cases for awhile untill I backed off the amount of lube a bit. Since then Lee lube has worked fine for me.
You could always send the die back to the factory and have them go over it, you'll be out postage, but gain some peace of mind.
Is the expander binding? Try lubing inside the necks.
I'm far, far from being an expert on reloading myself, but maybe this will help.

cheatermk3 · « **Reply #20 on:** March 08, 2006, 11:13:47 AM »

So, what you're doing is making ammo for this gun from scratch using new cases; this is where your once fired brass came from?

Whenever you start using brand-new brass, you should, as a minimum, run them over the expander ball to round out the case mouths, and trim them all to the same length. I lube, size, trim, and de-burr the case mouths and the flash holes on all new brass I use in bottle-necked cases.

Sorry if you're already doing this, but if you're not, there is a possibility that irregular-lengthed cases could be affecting the pressure in the chamber when fired causing a spike.

safetysheriff · « **Reply #21 on:** March 08, 2006, 12:22:08 PM »

Quote from: bluebayou

tried a Hornady full length die and it will NOT work. Couldn't get the cases into the die. I chalked this up to a bad die (it was used), now not sure.
I SUSPECT YOU DIDN'T TIGHTEN THE COLLET/NUT TIGHT ENOUGH AROUND THE EXPANDER BALL/SPINDLE. THE BALL SLID UP INTO THE DIE WHERE IT SHOULD BE ALLOWING THE BRASS TO ENTER FOR SIZING INSIDE THE NECK AREA OF THE DIE.

Once fired brass either sticks in die or I get oil dents, no middle ground.+
IMPROPER LUBE AS YOU SAID BELOW? TRY A NEW LUBE....AND I STILL RECOMMEND MOBIL-1 SYNTHETIC FOR HOW WELL IT WORKS....

2-4 time fired brass is alot easier to size and hasn't been denting as much at all
THAT TELLS ME THE BRASS IS POSSIBLY TOO SOFT WHEN IT IS NEW. AS IT WORK-HARDENS FROM RE-SIZING IT IS EASIER TO WORK WITH.

The cases jam in the sizing die consistently with 1/8" of the neck sized and 1/4 of case left outside the base of the die.
I SUSPECT THE EXPANDER BALL IS DOWN TOO LOW IN THE DIE, OR ELSE TOO HIGH UP INSIDE OF IT. IF IT KNOCKS OUT THE PRIMERS AND THEN STOPS THE BRASS FROM FULL ENTRY THEN YOU NEED TO PUT THE EXPANDER A LITTLE HIGHER UP INSIDE THE DIE.

I trim on once fired but not so much on 2-4 times.
NO PROBLEM! NEW-ONCE-FIRED BRASS CAN NEED A TRIMMING. AND YOU DON'T HAVE TO COUNT IT AS A TRIM IS WHAT I'VE READ. NEVER TRIM A PIECE OF BRASS THE FIFTH TIME...... THROW IT AWAY BEFORE TRIMMING IT FIVE TIMES.

The case lube is old, hand me down bottle of Redding. Should probably get new stock thinking about it.
IF IT IS OLD IT MAY HAVE DECAYED/GONE RANCID FROM BACTERIA SETTLING INTO IT. IT HAPPENS WITH LUBRICANTS AND HYDRAULIC FLUIDS OF VARIOUS KINDS. follow your first hunch and get some 'new'

Any ideas?

I used CAPS' above just to tell you that i was giving an opinion in each instance where you'd asked a question or left us an observation. i'm not hollering or angry.......just don't know how else to make it stand out.

respectfully,

ss'

bluebayou · « **Reply #22 on:** March 08, 2006, 01:02:34 PM »

Safety,
I do have the decapping stem/expander a little lower than what I see dies set up for in magazines. This is the frustration of not having someone aruond here that could take a look first hand. If it is extended enough to knock out the old primer is that enough? The Hornady die won't even get the shoulder of the brass into the die.

Thanks for looking at all of my earlier posts too.
I am going to go with a new lube. Heading over to Arkansas on Tuesday, will get some then.

cheatermk3 · « **Reply #23 on:** March 08, 2006, 03:51:18 PM »

Blue, the decapping spindle ass'y. should only be down just far enough to knock out the old primer.

safetysheriff · « **Reply #24 on:** March 09, 2006, 01:25:34 AM »

Quote from: bluebayou

Safety,
I do have the decapping stem/expander a little lower than what I see dies set up for in magazines. This is the frustration of not having someone aruond here that could take a look first hand. If it is extended enough to knock out the old primer is that enough? The Hornady die won't even get the shoulder of the brass into the die.

Thanks for looking at all of my earlier posts too.
I am going to go with a new lube. Heading over to Arkansas on Tuesday, will get some then.

bb'

don't give up because of the frustration. First, if you are spiritually-minded, ask God to help you understand. we will go on from there for now.

as 'cm3' said: just lower the decapping pin enough to get the job done.
the Hornady die may have been reamed short, or it may have been mislabelled. take out the expander and spindle assy'. will a Lubricated piece of brass go all the way up then? If so, the problem is possibly with a wrong-sized expander ball. i suspect the problem is with the die itself, but if the neck opening on the brass hits the bottom of the expander ball(brass not centered in the die) the edge of the expander ball will stop the brass from entering the die.

the new lube should be a big help.

don't get discouraged. i have a buddy 50 miles from me that i helped get set up, and one much closer that i helped. they had a lot of over-the-phone questions, believe me. get a couple of good books and start reading is a final suggestion.

hope this helps,

ss'