357-44 B&D loads

[unspellable]

I need some loading info for the 357-44 in a hurry.  Not so much the load as tomorrow I will be buying a can of powder for it and am wondering what powder to get.

I propose to launch a 158 grain jacketed bullet from a six inch S&W.

TC says a max pressure of 42,000 for their barrels, but I am inclined to think I should limit pressure to 36,000 in the S&W or the same as SAAMI max for the 44 Mag.  Also, for now, I am not looking for the hottest possible load, rather a nice safe middle of the road load until I have all the bugs out and am more familiar with this animal.

[Steve E]

I have always had good luck with about 22 grs. of Win 296 for the 158 gr. bullets. Also Hodgon Lil'Gun works real well but I don't have the data in front of me.
I like to load the 180 gr. XTP's in my Marlin 1894 and Encore with good results.
It was a ball hitting the 440 yd gong at KoKo Head range with my Marlin and 125 gr. Semi Jacketed HP's, after ranging it in I could hit the gong 9 out of 10 times. That was with a tang sight on the rifle.
I just received an Encore 22" Carbine barrel in 357x44 B&D(38 SPL Match barrel rechambered) from Mike B@#lm. I had him throat the barrel for Hornady 180 gr. XTP's seated with the base at the bottom of the neck. Hope to try it out this weekend. My dream gun would be a double rifle in 357 B&D about the size of a 410 double barrelled shotgun.


                                            Steve E..........

[unspellable]

I see that you have to watch what you are doing with this cartrdige.  The maximum OAL is 1.610 inch, but I most of the loads I've seen so far call for OAl in the range of 1.685 to 1.700, something you can get away with in a single shot with a long throat but it won't work in a revolver.  I think the single shots will take a bit more pressure than the revolver as well.

I went to my shelf and found that I had Bullseye, Unique, and a selection of slow rifle powders on hand.  Nothing suitable for the 357-44 so it will be off to the gun show this week end to pick up a can of powder.

I'm not big on the idea of W296 or H110 in a revolver asa these are the two powders with a reputation for eroding the top strap.  Of course that's not an issue in a single shot or rifle.

[Steve E]

Try some Hodgon Lil'Gun, I get excellent results, IMR 4227 seems to be ok but lacks velocity. I have a Ruger Blackhawk that I rechambered a 9mm cylinder to 357 B&D and the 296 does give a loud report and a little bit of a fireball.
My reloads for the Marlin  with 180 gr. XTP COL measure:
Marlin & Ruger --1.600
T/C Encore Carbine--1.845
Try the Sierra Bulletsmiths, they may can give you some data on the 158 gr. bullets and Lil'Gun. I haven't shot any of the 158 gr. bullets in so long I can't find any of my data for it.
I really like the 125 gr. semi jacketed hp zipping out from the Marlin barrel at something like 2300 fps, I hope to use it on some of the coy dogs back home. It should turn them inside out.

                                               Steve E.........

[unspellable]

Powders like H110 and W296 with heavy charges behind light bullets are fine in a rifle or single shot but they have a reputation for causing erosion in revolvers, so I decided to try and avoid these two powders.  That left 2400, Accur #9, and Accur 1680 as very good candidates for the 158 grain bullet in a revolver.

I went to Gander Mountain and they didn't have any.  I went to GOT (a local outdoor store) and they didn't have any either.  (And 2400 is used in the Keith 44 Mag load!) I wound up with a jug of H4227, and as you say, it doesn't produce a lot of velocity in this cartridge, but I wanted to get something to get the ball rolling.

When first forming brass, do you simple run it into the sizer, or do you anneal the necks?  I see little stress marks on the shoulders and necks.  Do you find any particular brand of brass works better than another?  I started with Winchester brass.

[Steve E]

BETTER CHECK WITH HODGON ABOUT THE DATA FOR INTERCHANGING H4227 AND IMR4227, I know they are close on most loading but play it safe with something that goes bang in your hand or next to your head.
Don't forget about Hogon Lil'Gun.
On making cases, just lightly lube them and run them in the sizing die and there you have it, you might want to square up the case mouth and trim to length. If you get any visible wrinkles in the shoulder or neck just cut down on the lube a little. No annealing neccessary. Just about any brand of cases will work, I use Starline a lot. I have some nickeled brass with the headstamp TEXAS  44 MAG on it but is chatters in the sizing die no matter how much or how little lube is on them(with my Hornady die) but not with my RCBS die. If you have a barrel built have the 'Smith throat it where the bullet you prefer to shoot seats with it's base at the bottom of the short neck, This will allow you to get a considerably more velocity before you get to high pressure signs. That is the way I had my Encore rifle barrel built and it takes a lot more powder to start getting pressure signs. Flattened primers, excessive casehead expansion etc.

                                         Steve E...........

[unspellable]

I had data calling for 19.0 or 20.0 grains of H4227 behind a 158 grain XTP.

I loaded up with 18.7 grains of H4227 behind a 158 grain Nosler.

If anyhting about this load strikes you as scary, now's the time to say so, before I get out to the range.

The Winchester brass does not show any dents as it would for excess lube.  Rather I have some sort of stress marks from the brass flowing.  We will see how well they hold up.

Barrel throating doesn't apply, I will be launching them from a revolver.  Cylinder length dictates max OAL.  (1.608 inch)

[Steve E]

I am not sure about any of the H4227 data as I don't have any info at all on that powder.
I ran into that problem about the restriction on OAL when I load for my Ruger Blackhawk in 357 B&D.
I also get the 'stress marks' on just about all of the brass I use, doesn't cause any problems though. It seems to be fairly easy on brass, after several reloadings you might see some brass getting small splits at the case mouths. Might help to anneal but I don't bother as 44 Mag brass is plentiful and reasonably priced.
After many thousand rounds of 158 gr. bullets through my Blackhawk's topstrap looks just like the topstraps on all my other Blackhawks(just fine). I guess I do, I have the following in 357 B&D:
6.5 inch Ruger Blackhawk
12 inch Contender (Bullberry)
20 inch Marlin 1894
Encore 22 inch Carbine
and still looking for more.
I'm sure you'll enjoy it, one of my favorite times at the range is shooting and hitting the 330 yard gongs with it, of course you have to have just a wee bit of holdover.

                                        Steve E......

[unspellable]

I have a Ruger Blackhawk that I am thinking of converting to 357-44.  Any recommendations on where to get it done?

Any arguments in favor of the 9mm cylinder vs the 357 cylinder or vice versa for the conversion?

I had thought of a Winchester M1894 conversion, but with the mad scramble no one for Winchesters, I may abandon that idea.

[Steve E]

Best cylinder to use is the 9mm one as it will clean up each chamber in the cylinder better than the 357 cylinder. It might be easier to do a conversion on a Marlin. All you need is a 44 Mag rifle and a 357 Mag barrel, a reamer and a "Smith." Most of the time no adjustment on the feeding is needed.
I got my 357 Mag barrel new from Gun Parts Corp. for around $80.00.
I sent everything to Jim Brockman at Brockmans Rifles and he did the conversion on the Marlin for $150.00.
He stated 'that is an easy conversion, it'll only take a couple of months to get it back to you", in reality it took almost 18 months, I guess he got backed up.
But I really love that Marlin now. Just about any smith can rechamber the cylinder or do the Marlin conversion for you and there are a few reamer rental places on the net. Hope you get it going, I would like to see the 357 B&D make a come back.

                                         Steve E..........

[unspellable]

I'm not sure it's ever really been away.  Seems to be popular in single shots and lever actions.

As for revolvers, I'm not convinced it's so rare there either.  Cartridges of the World bad mouthed it for set back, and dropped it from the latest edition (Although it's still on the dimension chart.) but I've never been totally convinced of C of W's accuracy or choice of what to include or exclude.  

I got to thinking about the setback issue.  If it's so bad, how come we don't have problems with tip barrel single shots?  A tip barrel action can be bound up fairly easily by setback.  I've experienced it with another unrelated rifle cartridge.

[Steve E]

I agree with you about Cart- of the World. Setback has not been a problem with my Blackhawk or my Contender or Encore.
I bet some of the new copper hollowpoints would do a good job on some of the critters in your neck of the woods. I plan to use some Rem. 125 gr. SJHP on some Coy Dogs in my Marlin back home this fall. They usually run about 2300 fps. That should turn one inside out.

                                              Steve E..........

[unspellable]

I put 18.7 grains of H4227 behind a 158 grain Nosler in a Winchester case with a Winchester primer.  (S&W Model 28)  Now this load is 0.3 grains less than the lesser of two loads listed.  I had extremely difficult extraction on two or three rounds in each of two cylinders full.  The other cases fell out of their own weight.  At that point I quit, it's go figure time.

Fired cases and primers look OK, no sign of excess pressure there.

Most of the data I see is for the Contender.  Are we dealing with two levels of loading, one for single shots and another for revolvers?  Is the extraction difficulty due to something other than excess pressure?  (I've had that happen with a bad batch of brass in the 445 SuperMag.  It wouldn't extract no matter how light the load.)

I'm planning to convert a Blackhawk to this chambering.  Is there any chance these loads would work in the Blckhawk or do I just tear them down now?

[Steve E]

The loads should be just fine in the Ruger, I know 2 chambers in my Blackhawk had to be polished a bit before they would fall out on their own. In a revolver the chambers need to be clean(not oily) and it helps to be  a little on the smooth side. With some powders you can get an impressive fireball out of your revolver.

                                         Steve E......