handi rifle reloading flat primers

[MIKE61]

i loaded some light loads 41gr of imr 4064 and the primers were very flat  this was a 308 with 165gr NP is ther somthimng a need to know about these rifles. p.s. these were once fired factory loads that i full lenght resized.  thanks mike

[45/70fan]

Are you using military brass? If so the the cases are usually thicker which means less powder space. You are one grain below the starting load, some powders will pressure spike with light charges. Too hot a primer can do this too. I read an article where changing primers only changed velocity 200fps.

[cheatermk3]

My Nosler manual #3 shows a  load of 40.0 gn IMR-4064 as the start charge weight for the 165gn partition bullet.  Since the rule of thumb is to reduce the max load by 10%; the max load listed for this bullet/powder/primer/case in the book is 44.0 grains so, you are NOT at the correct start point powder-weight-wise.  This asumes you're using the same brass(winchester) and primer(Federal 210 match) listed in the Nosler book.  If you're using any different components you should reduce the START load by ANOTHER 10%.

I advise reducing your charge weight by at least 3 grains(for 38.0 grains) and then work the load for accuracy.

[stiff neck]

I've had a similar problem with my NEF recently.  I just started reloading for it, and so far with 3 bullet types and 2 powders I have only reached teh "max" listed loading with one combination.  I have to stop very early with the other combos due to flattened primers without even coming close to the max.  Not just a little bit of flattening, big flattening.  

So the loads that I've found that shoot well in my NEF are a little underpowered.  Ex: Speer 52gr VHP, 25.5gr H335, Win brass, Fed Gold Medal Match primers, COL 2.245".  I'm getting 5-shot groups in the 0.5"-0.6" range consistantly, which is fine, but they're only zipping about 3000 fps.  

[cheatermk3]

Guys, when a listed load you try, that the book shows as being a mid-range or a starting load, and you see pressure signs, it means that in YOUR rifle this is NOT a low-power load.  Pressure is what generates velocity and higher pressure generally means higher velocity.

So, stiff neck, those loads may not be "underpowered" in your rifle--or they wouldn't be giving you signs of excessive pressure!

Of course, I could be mistaken, it certainly wouldn't be the first time.

Without a chronograph you won't know for sure but It's possible that your "underpowered" loads are producing much higher velocities than you think.

Is the velocity you stated guesswork, or is it from a chronograph?

[stiff neck]

The velocity I stated is only a guess from the charts in the manual for that particular powder/bullet combo.  

Are you sure that higher pressure means higher velocity?  I didn't think that was necessarily true.

[cheatermk3]

Stiff neck,
No, not always, but for a given cartridge/rifle/load combination, yes.  Some combinations of components can easily produce higher pressure, but less velocity, than another combination, in the same cartridge/rifle(for that unique individual weapon).  However as a general rule when talking about a specific caliber/rifle/components combination, higher pressure means higher velocity.  

This is why the different max powder charges in the book for a certain cartridge, with the same bullet, case and primer, may have very different published velocities--the pressures spike out at different levels due to many factors, not just powder and charge weight.

Just for one, two rifles made in the same factory on the same day can be very different.  How?  Well, for one thing, chambering reamesr do not last forever, and they ain't cheap, so they are made to tolerances, + or - so many thou. or 1/10 thou.  A brand new reamer cuts the biggest (max tolerance) chamber; every time it is sharpened, it cuts a smaller chamber, until it reaches the end of it's useful life, wherein it will be cutting a minimum SAAMI spec. chamber.  Two consecutive serial numbeber barrels may be cut with two different reamers, one max and one min. spec., which will result in two chambers that will perform differently with the exact same load.

[Mac11700]

Just for one, two rifles made in the same factory on the same day can be very different. How? Well, for one thing, chambering reamesr do not last forever, and they ain't cheap, so they are made to tolerances, + or - so many thou. or 1/10 thou. A brand new reamer cuts the biggest (max tolerance) chamber; every time it is sharpened, it cuts a smaller chamber, until it reaches the end of it's useful life, wherein it will be cutting a minimum SAAMI spec. chamber. Two consecutive serial numbeber barrels may be cut with two different reamers, one max and one min. spec., which will result in two chambers that will perform differently with the exact same load.

Ain't that the truth :agree:

I was speaking to Sean at Western Powder Co. yesterday..asking them about doing some pressure testing for me...which I must sadly say he said  they no-longer offer to do for the general public..anyway..he told me of doing some testing with 2 exact same rifles same caliber and all..1 gave over 15,000 PSI difference with the exact same load they loaded.. :shock:  :shock:  :shock: This would be enough to ruin anyones chances of simalarity...You can never be too sure of what it's going to do.....even changing the primers can cause problems..now this isn't any definative test..but something this gentelman did..and will give you an idea of what primers will give...http://www.castingstuff.com/primer_testing_reference.htm..I've always had good luck with the 2 lots of 1000 primers I got of the Remington 9-1/2..this may change when I have exhausted my supply in a year or 2...I've always got lower pressure signs with these paticular lots as compared to CCI's or Winchesters...you may be experiancing the same..or different..but I do know if you substitute any component..and try to extrapoloate the data to achieve your desired results..it can dramaticly change the load..

Mac

[dodd3]

in my 45/70 using winchester primers with a given powder charge,the primers where normal. with a new lot of the same primers same powder charge same velosity the primers where quite flat.after inspecting spent primers from both lots i found the new primers were softer, the crono readings for both lots of primers were the same as they normaly are so it was not a preasure rise that made the second lot of primers flat it was that they were softer, i have found this to hapen over the years i have been reloading with winchester primers, cant coment on outher brands, but like every one says all ways start low and work up your loads looking for presure signs not just the primers but around the web of the case as well.
bernie   :grin:

[grouper sandwich]

As a tule, Winchester primers are softer.  I've loaded max loads using 5 with Winchester and 5 with CCI primers and the Winchesters will ALWAYS flatten out while the CCI's will not.  I usually don't worry about the Wins unless they actually flatten out and flow out of the primer pocket.  Now if you flatten out a CCI!  Remingotn brass, I've found, will also raise pressure.

[safetysheriff]

my 'safety tip' for today is :  do not develop loads based upon chronograph readings.     chronographs have 'tolerances' that they are built to.   the people who shoot competition use them and find that they are not always reliable  with their velocity readings.   the real 'safety tip' is that as a rifle throat erodes it can take excessive pressure to develop the same velocity it reached when the rifle was first broken in.    and, if you have a 'slow' barrel, the rifle may develop excess pressure before reaching the velocity you desire....... no matter what else you do.

if you look at www.long-range.com you can see some of the troubles that the top competitors have had with chronographs.   just use the 'search' function on that site.

because of pressure signs that we can study and learn i prefer to work without a chrono' and live with whatever gives me the best accuracy.

take care,

ss'

[sparkyc2]

I believe from my experience that primer observation is an inconsistant, if not incorrect, mean of judging pressure in any given rifle.  Headspace can be a considerable impact on primers, (short case, primer comes out some upon firing, case sets back and crushes primer before it retracts back into the case) as well as the primers themselves, as already pointed out.  Use a mic, measure a factory load if possible to record before and after measurements just above the rim, then judge your reloads accordingly.  Works better for me over the last few years.

[Mac11700]

I use both the chronograph and mic'ing  the cases...short of having a Pressure trace system attatched to your barrel would seem be the best way of checking your loads..at least for me...

Mac

[jeager106]

I'm new to the Handi rifle so everything about them is new to me.
The only single shot rifles I've had were Ruger #1's.
I have the .223 short heavy tube Handi.
I can but don't relaod. I bought some Winchetser .45 grain,white box, Wally stuff the other day and sighted in at 75 yards as that's as far as my back yard range goes. Well not any more! A couple hours this morning with the chain saw now gives me close to 100 but I digress.
Anyway I noticed the Winchester factory load spent casings all have VERY flattened primers, Way BIG TIME flat!
I tried two different lots of Black Hills and the same thing there.
Very big time flattened primers.
Wonder why?
'Nuther thing. The rifle was giving pretty fair groups (one inch) with the Winny stuff the other day but I tried the Black Hills 50 grain Vmax and got FIVE INCHES at 75??
WT heck???!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I went back to the Winny 45 grain stuff an got 3"?
Gremlins maybe?

[quickdtoo]

Copper fouled bore or too clean bore, oil on the latch....maybe???

Assuming it's not scope/mount related, of course. :wink:

Bad hair day, too much coffee, tired from all that lumberjackin!! :eek:

Tim

[Fred M]

Mac.
As you said a chrono is perhaps one of the best handloading tools you can use. Without it you are trotting in the dark. But it takes study and knowhow to interprete the results.

If you load a bonafied handload from a good reloading manual, your handoads should be quite compareable with these when you measure them with a chrony indicating that you are within pressure parameters of the load.

If not then you need to investigate why. There are many things that cause variations. Without as chrony starting point you are just guessing.

When I develop a load using QL together with a Chono the results are very close withing pressure. Any abnormal pressure or behavior can quite easely be found.

Primers will increase or decrease pressure, but no brand that I have used has put the load in a danger zone. Again the chrono will tell you the primer variation.

When primers are not fully seated and or on top of crud or in primer pockets that are of various depth or flash holes of various diameter, this will also show on the Chrono and on the target by vertical stringing. Although this stringing is quite minimal not like a loose latch.

Uniform primer position is important with no gap under the primer. BR shooters use a primer seater with which they can adjust the primer seating pressure for utmost uniformity.

Crunching the primer down and distort the anvil is another no no.

[Mac11700]

Fred:

 :agree:

Yup..I've also found a few lots of Winchesters LR's and CCI's..that seemed to me to be way undersized..they seated too easy for me in factory new brass....switched over to another lot...was fine..I tried some of them anyway just to see what they would do..flattend right out with a minimum start load...this is one of the main reasons I use the Lee handpriming tool and never even bother to use what comes on any of the presses for my CF rifle loads...I like to feel how deep I'm seating them and the amount of pressure I'm putting on them..and crushing the anvils make them so erractic..you don't know what you'll wind up getting..

Mac

[jeager106]

oil on the latch....maybe???

Bad hair day, too much coffee, tired from all that lumberjackin!! :eek:
Tim

Oil on the latch?
'Splain please??

Bad hair day? Yup. That'll do it every time. :-D

[safetysheriff]

one rather quick source of info' re: chronographs would be in the 'blog' on www.6mmbr.com/index.html     it's about 1/3 of the way down that home page.  it's very disappointing to realize that something so ostensibly refined as a chrono' could give such miserable results as they achieved with one of their units!   it pays to research which units are Really reliable.....and it pays to lay out sufficient money to get one that is serviced by a decent company if it's ever needed.  

i am convinced that if you're shooting beyond 400 yds' a decent chronograph would matter.   otherwise i would not build my loads around one.   the article above is only one source i've seen where competitors have had problems with chronographs.   the original genesis of this topic regarded flattened primers and the safety issue.   i would not use a chrono' to determine the safety of a load, as stated in my previous post.  

just my two cents,

ss'

[Mac11700]

SS:

One thing they failed to mention is if they were using the diffusers with the Chrony..I've seen a-lot of folks not using them on bright sunny days..and they will indeed give erronious readings if the sky screens aren't used. I've tested my Beta Master crony against a Ohler 35..and it is damn close for a fraction the cost..granted..I would love to have one of the Ohlers and all the cool programs you can get with it and some of the extra features....but buying all these Handi's is keeping me from buying one    ..I have done my research on these units...I had one of the first Chronys put out on the market..many years ago..they have always worked admirably..and one thing I do know about the company..they will usually repair or replace a faulty unit at little or no charge without question..even when someone shoots thru one of the photo eyes :oops:  I also agree with you...I wouldn't just use a chronograph as the only means of determining safe loads either..a-lot more has to go into it than just that...but it is a indispencable tool to help verify your data..without one..your just guessing...

Mac

[quickdtoo]

Oil on the latch?
'Splain please??

The latch and latch shelf need to be clean and dry for good lockup. After cleaning and oiling, oil will run from the bore on to the latch area when the rifle is stored muzzle up. Before shooting, it's a good idea to make sure the latch mechanism is clean and dry. :wink:

Tim

[safetysheriff]

Mac'

hey, i hope all is well with you and yours.   good to see you working today!

i guess my take on shooting any given projectile is to actually shoot it and see how it performs at a given (longer) range.    it's easy to see what a load will do at 100 yds for grouping and for velocity.    what will it do at 300 or 400, which is a horse of another color?   even if someone gets Excellent velocities and Good accuracy at 100 yds, how will the 'driver' group his projectiles at that longer range?   and this still hasn't addressed the pressure-related concerns......

when Mike Venturino did his article on the .308 and various brands of projectiles in Shooting Times some years ago he found some interesting results which agreed with some of John Barsness' observations elsewhere --- the bullets were shooting higher than anticipated by the computer programs and apparently by the chronographs.   (Barsness -- as i remember -- said one time that any of his misses had always been Over the back of his game targets!)

a chrono', as i see it, may be alright for some purposes, such as verifying Standard Deviations and Extreme Spreads, if the chrono' provides valid data.    for use with a Handi, however, i suggest other ways of achieving proper loads:  check for pressure signs and shoot for some longer distances to see how the rifle and the shooter work together.   then, when one is hunting, try to get reasonably close to the game to properly place a killing shot with a decent projectile.

if shooting Serious competiton, whether F-Class or otherwise, i'd recommend a bolt-action most of the time.

take care, Mac,

ss'

[Mac11700]

SS:

Your right again..nothing like actually going out and getting in some long range shooting to see how they all do way out there..and the practice never hurts either :wink:

Mac