Author Topic: Is the United States an evil empire?  (Read 2259 times)

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Offline BrianMcCandliss

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Is the United States an evil empire?
« on: February 09, 2006, 04:19:53 PM »
Current history holds that a legal dispute over state sovereignty was "settled" via the Civil War. However, only evil empires "settle" the sovereignty of other nations-- i.e. conquer them-- via the use of force in their own favor, particularly when their own laws recognize that sovereignty.

Since the Civil War we've seen the draft, taxation of income, rule by corporate special interests, state control of the economy, and imperialist intervention into global affairs against the will of the people; these and a thousand and one other deprivations of basic liberty, are the same hallmarks which Reagan hypocritically used to name the Soviet Union as "an evil empire."

However, one who makes such accusations must have clean hands in this; and the United States certainly has its hands filthy with the blood-money of its own and other citizens.

Technically, the United States IS an empire-- and not a Union; an empire is defined as "political unit having an extensive territory or comprising a number of territories or nations and ruled by a single supreme authority."

As to whether it's "evil," this goes back to the legality of its formation. If it was formed by the conquest of sovereign free and democratic nations, then it's definitely evil.

All evidence indicates conclusively that the Civil War was nothing but a trumped-up use of force against sovereign nations, by simply claiming that they weren't such; Saddam Hussein made the same claim against Kuwait in 1990. So how is this any different?

Only hypocrites would accuse others, of those charges which they aren't prepared to  face themselves.

Offline S.S.

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Is the United States an evil empire?
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2006, 04:39:44 AM »
I hate to admit this (Simply because it sounds so bad), But in a way I agree with you. Our government has become so powerful and so corrupt
that it simply is not "By the People, For the People' anymore.
I just wonder what the great men that founded this nation would think about it today. And would they have the Brass to set things right if they lived today... it seems that great men who push for change in recent history live short lives. Sad but true.
Vir prudens non contra ventum mingit
"A wise man does not pee against the wind".

Offline Shorty

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Is the United States an evil empire?
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2006, 02:56:02 PM »
The Southern States didn't mind being a part of that "empire" when Andy Jackson prosecuted the Creek Wars or evicted peaceful Cherokees from North Carolina.  
 :?

Offline BrianMcCandliss

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« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2006, 06:42:41 PM »
Quote from: S.Sumner
I hate to admit this (Simply because it sounds so bad), But in a way I agree with you. Our government has become so powerful and so corrupt
that it simply is not "By the People, For the People' anymore.
I just wonder what the great men that founded this nation would think about it today. And would they have the Brass to set things right if they lived today... it seems that great men who push for change in recent history live short lives. Sad but true.


Actually, that happened the first time that the federal government assumed the power to perform human sacrifices, via "the draft;" once you can do that, there's no limit. Power doesn't just corrupt-- it IS corrupt.

Indeed, corruption is guaranteed, when there is power without accountability-- whether it's under George III, George Washington or... some other leader named George  :)

This is precisely why the Founders declared-- and retained-- the sovereignty of every state, since otherwise even the most explicit Constitutional protections, wouldn't be worth the parchment it was written on when push came to shove between federal and state government-- and history proves that they were right.  It's like saying "only government can have guns, but will promise not to shoot citizens..." which was precisely what wiped out over 1/10 of the world population during the 20th century under socialism.
And we have the Civil War to thank for that as well.

Offline BrianMcCandliss

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« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2006, 06:47:12 PM »
Quote from: Shorty
The Southern States didn't mind being a part of that "empire" when Andy Jackson prosecuted the Creek Wars or evicted peaceful Cherokees from North Carolina.  
 :?


Because it didn't exist then. It was a REPUBLIC-- like Rome before Caesar-- which is the point Greg Durand makes in his book "America's Caesar," relating Lincoln to another man who likewise turned a republic into an empire.

Offline victorcharlie

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« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2006, 12:37:31 AM »
Brian, we think a lot alike.

All wasn't well with the founding fathers but they tried to make it right when they set up their government.  I find it hard to believe that my fore fathers would sign away there soveranty, and that they would do so without giving themselves an out should the agreement not work out.

The 10th ammendment reads "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people."

Here we are 200 years later...........the constitution has been trampled upon so many times.....that it is now no more than a historical document......as our government.......the government of our great, great, grandfathers is no more.
"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. Tolerance in the face of tyranny is no virtue."
Barry Goldwater

Offline BrianMcCandliss

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« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2006, 06:37:16 PM »
Quote from: victorcharlie
Brian, we think a lot alike.

All wasn't well with the founding fathers but they tried to make it right when they set up their government.  I find it hard to believe that my fore fathers would sign away there soveranty, and that they would do so without giving themselves an out should the agreement not work out.



And they didn't; Madison was quite clear in Federalist #39:

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Each State, in ratifying the Constitution, is considered as a sovereign body, independent of all others, and only to be bound by its own voluntary act. In this relation, then, the new Constitution will, if established, be a federal, and not a national constitution.


Since Madison was the one who basically sold the Constitution to the states, then that was the deal-- a federal republic, and NOT A NATION.
Rather, as stated in my paper, every state was a sovereign nation.

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The 10th ammendment reads "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people."


And the key word there is DELEGATE. In my paper, I explain the meaning of this term; many have mistaken this to mean "given" or "granted," but in reality it simply means "assigned to a subordinate agent."

You can't make war on a nation using their delegated authority-- any more than you can fire your boss via the same.

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Here we are 200 years later...........the constitution has been trampled upon so many times.....that it is now no more than a historical document......as our government.......the government of our great, great, grandfathers is no more.


Actually it is-- people just don't THINK it is.
However, the US still claims to operate on the basis of the original intent of the Constitution-- except where it's been officially changed; however, it's impossible to have changed the meaning of the Constitution to revoke state sovereignty, since that would be ADMITTING that the states were sovereign prior to this-- a premise upon which the Civil War was waged in DENIAL. On the contrary, Lincoln claimed that the states were not only not sovereign after ratifying the Constitution, but that they were not sovereign BEFORE ratifying it, ever.

Once this claim is proven false, then the law MUST be enforced as written-- AND as intended.

I've already written to my congressman about this-- I recommend everyone do the same.

Offline williamlayton

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« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2006, 01:14:45 AM »
Brian-
What is your solution?
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline BrianMcCandliss

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« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2006, 03:06:07 AM »
Enforce the law, sir-- as written, and intended. The law is, after all, our covenant with others; and thus we have every right to demand that it be upheld and recognized-- or become their slaves by default.

As Madison guaranteed in Federalist 39:

"Each State, in ratifying the Constitution, is considered as a sovereign body, independent of all others, and only to be bound by its own voluntary act. In this relation, then, the new Constitution will, if established, be a federal, and not a national constitution."

Hence, the current order is an illegal enemy occupation of each individual state-- legally speaking. And if this is legal, then the law means nothing.

By decentralizing the states, each state will, by its supreme power of secession, liberate us from our current slave-existence by which the power elite and mob, rule the individual hoi poloi via arbitrary fiat.
However we will retain our federal protections via federal supremacy over state courts.

Conversely, the current system of state subordination to federal dictates, have given forth to collaboration, leaving us as Jesus caught between Pilate and Herod-- free to argue for individual rights against general and local authority, but crucified if we persist.

I recommend writing your Congressman, demanding an investigation of this evidence, and a redress. This probably won't do much, but it's the first step in exhaustion of remedy.
After that, we can take the next step.

Offline JBMauser

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Is the United States an evil empire?
« Reply #9 on: February 26, 2006, 04:54:45 AM »
“As to whether it's "evil," this goes back to the legality of its formation. If it was formed by the conquest of sovereign free and democratic nations, then it's definitely evil. "

I find it funny how points are made based on assumptions that are pulled out of the air or by applying snippets of documents or statements. and then pilling on.  

This reminds me of my late brother-in-law who after moving from New Jersey to Wisconsin learned a bunch of history of the plight of the Indians.  Basically, after he learned about the extent of the US destruction and persecution and exile of the Indian nations, we as a country could do no right as we were born of evil.  Evil that pre dates your evil I might add!  

Oh and by the way, I think evil as a concept as apposed with say corrupt, would entail the death, enslavement, or exile of peoples.  Not just the corruption of power and responsibility (US Congress comes to mind).

Not to be Clintonesque but What Is IS.  Today people can vote who own no property (no skin in the game) and do not have to be educated (to the degree that they  KNOW what decisions can make to others or their and others pocketbook – again property)  That is what IS.  The framers of our country could not envision this. (Woman)

The federal Gov IS and it is not going to go away even if there were a total revolution.  It would remain cast anew with  a new clique at the helm.  

The age of States as STATES is gone forever.  In Europe countries are loosing their Sovereignty to the EU, I dare say that there will be other Unions formed over time from the remnants of the old Soviet Union, for economic and military necessity.  These countries are disparate peoples and are consolidating their Identities.  They are not done yet.  

I can recognize evail and I can point it out because I have some degree of freedom to do so.  

If any of us want to improve the state of what IS I think we should flush the congress and put people in there who will do the job they are suppose to do, not put budgets on auto pilot to increase each year and make themselves eliete for life.  

We have computers now, HELLO... we mortals can manage huge budgets and store information from one term to another.  send them all home and get some statesmen in to run the ship of state and send the politicians out to get real jobs.  IMHO  JB

Offline JBMauser

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« Reply #10 on: February 26, 2006, 05:22:07 AM »
“As to whether it's "evil," this goes back to the legality of its formation. If it was formed by the conquest of sovereign free and democratic nations, then it's definitely evil. "

I find it funny how points are made based on assumptions that are pulled out of the air or by applying snippets of documents or statements. and then pilling on.  

This reminds me of my late brother-in-law who after moving from New Jersey to Wisconsin learned a bunch of history of the plight of the Indians.  Basically, after he learned about the extent of the US destruction and persecution and exile of the Indian nations, we as a country could do no right as we were born of evil.  Evil that pre dates your evil I might add!  

Oh and by the way, I think evil as a concept as apposed with say corrupt, would entail the death, enslavement, or exile of peoples.  Not just the corruption of power and responsibility (US Congress comes to mind).

Not to be Clintonesque but What Is IS.  Today people can vote who own no property (no skin in the game) and do not have to be educated (to the degree that they  KNOW what decisions can make to others or their and others pocketbook – again property)  That is what IS.  The framers of our country could not envision this. (Woman)

The federal Gov IS and it is not going to go away even if there were a total revolution.  It would remain cast anew with  a new clique at the helm.  

The age of States as STATES is gone forever.  In Europe countries are loosing their Sovereignty to the EU, I dare say that there will be other Unions formed over time from the remnants of the old Soviet Union, for economic and military necessity.  These countries are disparate peoples and are consolidating their Identities.  They are not done yet.  

I can recognize evail and I can point it out because I have some degree of freedom to do so.  

If any of us want to improve the state of what IS I think we should flush the congress and put people in there who will do the job they are suppose to do, not put budgets on auto pilot to increase each year and make themselves eliete for life.  

We have computers now, HELLO... we mortals can manage huge budgets and store information from one term to another.  send them all home and get some statesmen in to run the ship of state and send the politicians out to get real jobs.  IMHO  JB

Offline BrianMcCandliss

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« Reply #11 on: February 27, 2006, 12:25:12 AM »
(repeat post deleted)

Offline BrianMcCandliss

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« Reply #12 on: February 27, 2006, 06:43:04 AM »
(again)

Offline BrianMcCandliss

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« Reply #13 on: February 27, 2006, 06:48:09 AM »
Quote from: JBMauser
“As to whether it's "evil," this goes back to the legality of its formation. If it was formed by the conquest of sovereign free and democratic nations, then it's definitely evil. "

I find it funny how points are made based on assumptions that are pulled out of the air or by applying snippets of documents or statements. and then pilling on.  


And I find it rather obtuse, how points are refuted via ad hominem attacks, rather than addressing the point itself-- or even doing any homework on the issue-- but just logging on and plugging away. ANYONE can contradict-- not everyone can debate.

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This reminds me of my late brother-in-law


Case in point..... that's not welcome here.

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Oh and by the way, I think evil as a concept as apposed with say corrupt, would entail the death, enslavement, or exile of peoples.  Not just the corruption of power and responsibility (US Congress comes to mind).


Wow, talking about putting your foot in your mouth, you just did it-- as a frog would say-- knee-deep. Congress HAS been responsible for the death, enslavement and exile of peoples-- beginning with the Civil War.
You seem to want to excuse the evils of the US, that's all, rationalizing them-- the draft, the Civil War WWI, WWII, the Cold War, the Great Depression-- you've no doubt got your own rationalizations for all of these, how these were "different" from other dictatorships.
There's a psychological term for th is-- "psychotic denial."

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The federal Gov IS and it is not going to go away even if there were a total revolution.  It would remain cast anew with  a new clique at the helm.  


Ok, you clearly don't know much about US history; the Founders wanted to AVOID this by keeping the states SEPARATE, rather than simply forming a new empire. Only Hamilton wanted this, and even HE supported the right of state-secession as a means to prevent corruption.

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The age of States as STATES is gone forever.  


That's your opinion, based on nothing other than circular logic (i.e. "it's been that way up until now," regardless of changing causes).

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In Europe countries are loosing their Sovereignty to the EU, I dare say that there will be other Unions formed over time from the remnants of the old Soviet Union, for economic and military necessity.  These countries are disparate peoples and are consolidating their Identities.  They are not done yet.  


Again, more psychic-chat. That's really not the issue here.

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If any of us want to improve the state of what IS I think we should flush the congress and put people in there who will do the job they are suppose to do, not put budgets on auto pilot to increase each year and make themselves eliete for life.  


Yeah, that's worked SO well for the past 140 years-- NOT!
This notion of "just stop electing corrupt people" is naive, since the power is still there-- it's the CENTRALIZED STRUCTURE of the government that is the problem; likewise, such power ATTRACTS corrupt people to it, who get off having power over others, without accountability.
That's what you GET with an empire-- which is the form of government we have now-- i.e. many nations ruled by a single sovereign power.

This notion that "we just need the right people" is hopelessly ignorant, characterisitic of the "magical-thinking" that continues to pepetuate the myth of the "benevolent dictatorship."

This goes back even to ancient Israel, when the prophets warned the Israelites not to appoint a king-- but they persisted anyway, and the rest is history.

Looks like SOME have blind to  the lessons of history-- and there are none so blind as those who will not see.

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We have computers now, HELLO... we mortals can manage huge budgets and store information from one term to another.  send them all home and get some statesmen in to run the ship of state and send the politicians out to get real jobs.  IMHO  


Technology isn't the solution to excess government-- and it never was: the free-market system didn't need computers to end the aristocracy from determining prices, but rather Smith's "Invisible Hand" concept of normalized market-equilibrium did fine-- even before it was defined as such.

The benefit of computers today, is the manner in which it circumvents the entrenched corporate-satist controlled media, wherein the "unholy alliance" between collaborating publishers and the corporate-run state, have lost their monopoly over mass-communications; now, BLOGGERS are able to communicate uncensored by network, press and radio executive-boards--- or FCC censorship etc.

This message is a case-in-point; you'd never hear or see this over any television, radio or newspaper.

It's no coincidence that this protest against US national authority over the states, coincides with the advent of the internet, and its mass-availability.
Only one state needs to challenge this authority, for the whole order to collapse; currently, the only thing supporting it is mass-ignorance regarding its illegitimacy. It would be like a police-officer giving orders in the US-- and everyone obeying-- and then suddenly finding out he's a Mountie.
Once a single state challenges this, the corporate-empire of the almighty United States is over-- and we can go back to being just UNITED STATES.
Or DIS-united, if they prefer. It's up to them-- that's what the word "sovereignty" means.

Offline JBMauser

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« Reply #14 on: February 28, 2006, 05:46:48 PM »
Well, let me run at it again.  maybe I can be clear this time as it seems i must not have done well with my last post.  My reference to technology has to do with the simple fact that one time the amount of data a congressperson had to deal with to do his job as it was supposed to be done as it related to having intimate knowledge and grasp of each department and each budget item was beyond their ability to attend to it for a year then go home and campaign in their second year so they could win another term so they put the whole enchalida on auto increase and they feel they have done their job and then they spend their time diddleing with our lives.  My point is that the Technology we have at hand COULD allow a person of reasonable skill to DOTHE OVERSIGHT AND MANAGEMENT AS WAS INTENDED.  They are tasked with the country's purse and their job is to get the most with the best use of $$.  I am saying that the technology is there for them to regain the responsibility of their office and to dispatch those duties.  

Now as to "Yeah, that's worked SO well for the past 140 years-- NOT!
This notion of "just stop electing corrupt people" is naive, since the power is still there-- it's the CENTRALIZED STRUCTURE of the government that is the problem; likewise, such power ATTRACTS corrupt people to it, who get off having power over others, without accountability."  

Who said that!  The current system of those who dole out the $$$ seeking the votes of those who seek the $$$ is corrupt.  the system itself has sunk to the level of corruption.  Your comment about a Centralized Government as being the problem is actually funny.  Heck, I have seen county government that is loony, corrupt and beyond the pale.  If this can occure at the local, state and federal level I find that the only alternative to you would be total anarchy.  Or do I not understand what you mean by centralized structure.  

As to you comments about the ability of a single state to upset the status quo and return to the states as States issue is provocatice but so is the fact that the state boundaries are political lines and they are somewhat argitraty as is the line that can extend to cover the total for a federal gov.  These boundaries were set out of agreement and thin air.  
As is the boundary of the Federal Gov.  The Original charter of North Carolina was the eastern coast, the upper and lower merridian and THE WEST COAST.  Look it up.  that state would be the width of the USA but no, agreements and boundaries were subsequently made.  This is what is called a political boundary.  The
Federal Gov was a creation of agreement, willingly or unwillingly that created an entity that is not going away.  Or perhaps you think central California should cede to North Carolina?  After all it was in it's original charter.  JB

Offline JBMauser

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« Reply #15 on: February 28, 2006, 06:06:51 PM »
I have one more point to make and I will quit this thread because I feel it,s value is suspect.

I read this above.  "Actually, that happened the first time that the federal government assumed the power to perform human sacrifices, via "the draft;" once you can do that, there's no limit. Power doesn't just corrupt-- it IS corrupt. "  

I find this extreemely distasteful and vile.  I was born in New Jersey, I moved to North Carolina and considered myself an X Yankee, I now live in VA as I moved my wife to high ground from the ocean flooding coast.  Now I know what the South did in it's requirements for all able bodied men to serve and the home guard who would execute any dodger or whatever you called a man that did not do his duty no questions asked.  This was 200 percent more severe than  the DRAFT.   All of you must agree with this.  I refuse to charge the south with human sacrifice  I find you comment distastful and vile.  The North had draft riots but the South had the home guard that would shoot you down in a hearbeat if they found an able boddied man at his home.  The South did what they had to do, they did not have a draft they had total conscription!  I contend they had no choice and that they were not about human sacrifice.  I do not think you understand history, you may know it but I don't think you understand it.  JB

Offline BrianMcCandliss

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« Reply #16 on: March 01, 2006, 04:08:16 PM »
Quote from: JBMauser
Well, let me run at it again.  maybe I can be clear this time as it seems i must not have done well with my last post.  My reference to technology has to do with the simple fact that one time the amount of data a congressperson had to deal with to do his job as it was supposed to be done as it related to having intimate knowledge and grasp of each department and each budget item was beyond their ability to attend to it for a year then go home and campaign in their second year so they could win another term so they put the whole enchalida on auto increase and they feel they have done their job and then they spend their time diddleing with our lives.  My point is that the Technology we have at hand COULD allow a person of reasonable skill to DOTHE OVERSIGHT AND MANAGEMENT AS WAS INTENDED.  They are tasked with the country's purse and their job is to get the most with the best use of $$.  I am saying that the technology is there for them to regain the responsibility of their office and to dispatch those duties.


It was NEVER "intended," that the federal government would handle ANYTHING but those duties and powers SPECIFICALLY delegated to it under the Constitution-- with the term "delegated" being key, since delegation is not surrender, but voluntary assignment.
The United States was just that-- UNITED STATES. It was NOT, as Lincoln twisted, an empire, which could assign itself new powers at will-- AGAINST the will of the minority-states, and even at their expense!
THIS is why the US became an evil empire, and the Capitol became its Kremlin.

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Now as to "Yeah, that's worked SO well for the past 140 years-- NOT!
This notion of "just stop electing corrupt people" is naive, since the power is still there-- it's the CENTRALIZED STRUCTURE of the government that is the problem; likewise, such power ATTRACTS corrupt people to it, who get off having power over others, without accountability."  

Who said that!  The current system of those who dole out the $$$ seeking the votes of those who seek the $$$ is corrupt.  the system itself has sunk to the level of corruption.  Your comment about a Centralized Government as being the problem is actually funny.  Heck, I have seen county government that is loony, corrupt and beyond the pale.  If this can occure at the local, state and federal level I find that the only alternative to you would be total anarchy.  Or do I not understand what you mean by centralized structure.  


Clearly you don't undersand what I mean-- or much else.

Corruption at the local level RESULTS from corruption DUE TO corruption at the highest level.
I really don't get your mixed-up reasoning, by which corruption at the highest level, might PERMIT honesty at the local level; that's really "out there."

Without sovereign recourse to federal corruption at the state level, it's only a matter of time before corruption infiltrates the state iself, as the entire union falls under socialism. Then everything simply becomes a battle for control of resources and policy-- as well as porked-out factionalism.  No longer is it a union of free and willing nations, but rather an evil empire which STOLE the sovereignty of every state via lies and murder-- and continues to do so.

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As to you comments about the ability of a single state to upset the status quo and return to the states as States issue is provocatice but so is the fact that the state boundaries are political lines and they are somewhat argitraty as is the line that can extend to cover the total for a federal gov.  These boundaries were set out of agreement and thin air.  
As is the boundary of the Federal Gov.  The Original charter of North Carolina was the eastern coast, the upper and lower merridian and THE WEST COAST.  Look it up.  that state would be the width of the USA but no, agreements and boundaries were subsequently made.  This is what is called a political boundary.  The
Federal Gov was a creation of agreement, willingly or unwillingly that created an entity that is not going away.  Or perhaps you think central California should cede to North Carolina?  After all it was in it's original charter.  JB


This is what I mean by "straining out gnats and swallowing camels."
You're quibbling over boundaries, when the principle issue is SOVEREIGNTY. If the states aren't sovereign, then boundaries are as irrelevant as those of nations in the USSR; it's all the same empire, and these boundaries are irrelevant.

Also as to "look it up:"-- doesn't work that way. YOU made the allegation, it's YOUR job to provide the evidence.

Offline victorcharlie

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« Reply #17 on: March 02, 2006, 03:00:57 AM »
Quote from: JBMauser
Now I know what the South did in it's requirements for all able bodied men to serve and the home guard who would execute any dodger or whatever you called a man that did not do his duty no questions asked.  This was 200 percent more severe than  the DRAFT.   All of you must agree with this.  I refuse to charge the south with human sacrifice  I find you comment distastful and vile.  The North had draft riots but the South had the home guard that would shoot you down in a hearbeat if they found an able boddied man at his home.  The South did what they had to do, they did not have a draft they had total conscription!  I contend they had no choice and that they were not about human sacrifice.  I do not think you understand history, you may know it but I don't think you understand it.  JB


Really?  I have recently been working on my family history.  My Great, Great grandfather, who lived in Virginia, had 6 brothers.  Of all the brothers, only one served in the Confederate army.  Are you saying the other brothers hid until the war was over?

It appears to me that if a fellow joined, he was expected to serve.  If he deserted they hunted them down.  (I have 2 crossed of Johnsons) but clearly, every abled bodied man did not serve in the Confederate army.
"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. Tolerance in the face of tyranny is no virtue."
Barry Goldwater

Offline BrianMcCandliss

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Is the United States an evil empire?
« Reply #18 on: March 02, 2006, 06:17:16 PM »
Quote from: JBMauser
Now I know what the South did in it's requirements for all able bodied men to serve and the home guard who would execute any dodger or whatever you called a man that did not do his duty no questions asked.  This was 200 percent more severe than  the DRAFT.   All of you must agree with this.  I refuse to charge the south with human sacrifice  I find you comment distastful and vile.



And yet you have absolutely no problem with the sacrifice of human lives to an illegal coup. Strange.

However if the jack-boot fits, wear it.  The South wasn't an empire; it was a union of free and independent states, UNLIKE the Union-- which CLAIMED imperial structire (and SILENCED anyone who disagreed).

If either side had the RIGHT to conscript, it was the Confederate states, which WERE being ILLEGALLY attacked, invaded and conquered, in base treachery and ruthless imperialism against all recognized agreements; as such, they had a NEED to defend against such boundless brutality and tyranny.

In contrast, the Union WAS sacrificing lives to this illegal, imperialist coup-- so if you want to erupt in righteous indignation, you might want to get your priorities straight, along with your values, morals and ethics-- as well as your FACTS.

Also, you need to read some REAL history, not the victor-written revised garbage you're obviously been rummaging; you probably came up with similar notions about respective prison-camps, ala the "Andersonville" claptrap vs. the actual documented records.

The North  under Lincoln, meanwhile, CLAIMED supreme national authority over ALL states, both north and south-- ILLEGALLY; the 1918 Supreme Court case, also set the statist precedent that that there was no inalienable right to live or liberty; rather, there were only revocable privileges, subject to the arbitrary dictates of government, which now had the rightful power to decide who would serve and rule, and who would live and die.

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The South did what they had to do, they did not have a draft they had total conscription!


The draft IS conscription; however you might want to bone up on your history, since most "voluntary" enlistment into the Union army was under THREAT of conscription.

That IS human sacrifice-- particularly since US entry into WWI was an act of imperialist corporate-statism.
 

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I contend they had no choice and that they were not about human sacrifice.  I do not think you understand history, you may know it but I don't think you understand it.  JB


That's your own spoon-fed ignorance talking; the Civil War draft WAS sacrifice of human lives, to an ILLEGAL imperialist coup; likewise US involvement in WWI and WWII were both trumped up sacrifices of US citizens to ruthless foreign imperialism, and the Cold War was just the aftermath of that-- it just got bigger and bigger, until we were perched on the brink of nuclear annhilation.

None of this would have been possible, without the draft-- which is, after all, the sacrifice by one person, of another person's life-- otherwise that person would just volunteer.

You can't claim that power, while still claiming that man has the inalienable right to life and liberty.
If you do, you have a problem with the term "inalienable;" look it up.

Basically, this is statism, pure and simple, since it places the individual as expendible to the state-- which in turn, provides the manpower for wars of rank imperialism (though they're sure to "wag the dog" in terms of cooking up plausible excuses, as Lincoln did in the Civil War, Wilson did in WWI, and FDR did in WWII etc).

And anyone who dissenteds-- was never heard from again.

Even our current escapades in the Middle East, are aftermath of socialism-- particularly the corporate-state empire protection of the oil industry vs. other fuels-- not to mention intervention into ancient ethnic holy-wars, in which we have no stake other THAN oil.

And it all started with the Civil War; wars in the eastern hemisphere, were as old as time itself, and regarded the balance-of-power and diplomacy between various nations. However it's quite shameless for the US to have precipitated the wave of world socialism, via a socialist revolution of its own (i.e. the Republican takeover of all states into a single empire)-- and then claim to have RESCUED them from it.

Until you can refute that the Civil War was an illegal coup, then you're out of arguments.

Offline Bush Master

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Is the United States an evil empire?
« Reply #19 on: March 08, 2006, 09:51:26 AM »
Yes the US is an evil empire and yes I would prefer total anarchy to what our corrupt government has become. I am convinced the very idea of any kind of limited goverment is a fool's game. The founders made one huge mistake, and that was setting up any kind of central government at all.

Offline victorcharlie

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« Reply #20 on: March 08, 2006, 11:15:23 AM »
Quote from: Bush Master
Yes the US is an evil empire and yes I would prefer total anarchy to what our corrupt government has become. I am convinced the very idea of any kind of limited goverment is a fool's game. The founders made one huge mistake, and that was setting up any kind of central government at all.


Not really.  James Madison was quite a historian and in the federlist papers he references governments and why they fail.  He knew why they failed and tried to come up with a form of government that would work.  Government is necessary for an ordered society.  Liberty and happiness was what Madison was striving for but enter the evil nature of man.  Madison knew that previous government worked to farther commercial interest.  I really do believe the Civil War was where the shift to commercial inerest took over and liberty and the persuit of happiness got tabled.

I do think Carl Marx nailed it in the communist manifest with the theory that government evolves in a circle, from captilism, to socialism, to communism, and back to captialism.   Where we are in that circle is open to debate but there has definately been a shift to the socialist direction.  Russia is trying to return to capitalism.........

Either way, in the 2nd Federalist paper, Madison points out the because of the Geography, i.e rivers and common shore line that travel was not only possible but practical and there fore representatives could gather easily.  He, in the same paper, also pointed out that because we shared common ancestory, a common language, and a common religion a central government could work.

Using the same logic, now that world travel is a reality then a world government is possible.

Diversity, or the acceptance of it is required to make the common bond that is required for a "new world order" or world government to exist.

When the "new world order" or world government exist then the need for the middle class goes away and labor is enslaved again.

The Uninted Nations is the first attempt.

Diversity is counter to the common bond Madison used to sell the constitution to the 13 colonies and IMO is the reason our country is in the shape it's in.  No shame, no morals, little religion.........

I personally don't have a thing against anyones culture.  When cultures are mixed it makes for bad government as someone always feels second class.
"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. Tolerance in the face of tyranny is no virtue."
Barry Goldwater

Offline JBMauser

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Is the United States an evil empire?
« Reply #21 on: March 08, 2006, 03:27:35 PM »
It is interesting to me that those who live in comfort, security and relative freedom will hold forth the call for anarchy.  they would probably not be able to function not being able to plan for their future, invest for security in their old age, not worry if their kids ever return home when going out to play with thier friends.  They would screem like cats with their tails under a rocking chair if all that they have worked for was stripped from them for no reason by someone who just had the power to do so.   I think that most american communists, socialists and anarchists would wither under the systems they espouse.  It all sounds great for the other guy.  I am talking about mentally stable people of course.  Not Zellots which will not be confused by facts or reality.  JB

Offline BrianMcCandliss

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Is the United States an evil empire?
« Reply #22 on: March 08, 2006, 07:55:13 PM »
Quote from: victorcharlie
The Uninted Nations is the first attempt.

Diversity is counter to the common bond Madison used to sell the constitution to the 13 colonies and IMO is the reason our country is in the shape it's in.  No shame, no morals, little religion.........

I personally don't have a thing against anyones culture.  When cultures are mixed it makes for bad government as someone always feels second class.


The UN is a bogus knee-jerk reaction to world socialism-- by world-socialists, no less, who universally favor a ruling-elite; the "food-for oil" scandal proved this well enough, not to mention every other debacle since its initial formation.

I've stated before, that in Federalist 39, Madison is quite explicit that " Each State, in ratifying the Constitution, is considered as a sovereign body, independent of all others, and only to be bound by its own voluntary act. In this relation, then, the new Constitution will, if established, be a federal, and not a national constitution."

Indeed, a nation is, by definition, the government of a sovereign states; this is the basis of my paper "Were the States Sovereign Nations?"

Note my citation and linkage in another thread, how Marx congratulated Lincoln, comparing his efforts to his own in reference to the liberation of "Burgoise slavery from proletarian rule;" in this sense, it's not surprisng that socialism indeed began in the US-- and on similarly false pretenses.

Indeed, Lenin's use of the term "useful idiots" to describe those ideologues that furthered his rule, is quite appropriate-- then as now, in comparison to those who support Lincoln even today.

Such persond not only deny stark evidence, but likewise embrace the fundamental concept of imperial dictatorship and the omnipotent, all-knowin state-- while holding insecure contempt for the concept of universal liberty.

Offline BrianMcCandliss

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« Reply #23 on: March 08, 2006, 08:02:33 PM »
Quote from: JBMauser
It is interesting to me that those who live in comfort, security and relative freedom will hold forth the call for anarchy.  


"Relative freedom" is an oxymoron-- like "states' rights."

Both are absolute concepts, with any compromises or half-measures amounting to outright denials. Rather, the notion of "relative freedom," relegates inalienable rights to the level of mere revocable privileges-- much as we have today.

As for the rest-- Franklin was absolutely correct when he states that those who would trade liberty for security, lose both and deserve neither.

However, it's also no secret that a people faced with anarchy, will choose tyranny.

But neither extreme is here the case: we live under a law which calls for-- requires and guarantees, in fact-- a republic of separate sovereign states, each with supreme final power of self-government.

Therefore all else is irrelevant in this regard.

However likewise, we do currently live under an empire of corporate-statism-- and there lies the task of overturning this illicit order in favor of the true meaning of the actual written law-- not a theory.

Offline Bush Master

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Is the United States an evil empire?
« Reply #24 on: March 09, 2006, 11:27:37 AM »
By your post JB, you obviously have no concept of the definition of anarchy, like most victims of the US public school system you are most likely confusing it with chaos. Your entire post makes absolutely no sense and your poor spelling and language skills only confuse and obfuscate, maybe that is your intention. Just what is a zellot? Or did you mean zealot?

Offline BrianMcCandliss

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« Reply #25 on: March 11, 2006, 02:03:47 PM »
However,  state sovereignty is the actual guarantee to the American people under the written law; therefore, that's their absolute right, and anything that keeps state sovereignty from them is and act of both
war and treason.

Offline 1911crazy

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Is the United States an evil empire?
« Reply #26 on: March 25, 2006, 03:49:39 AM »
What have we become in the past century.  What do you think the arabs think of us when they watch Jerry Springer on TV? I'm sure they judge us by watching Springer too. Think about it. I'm sure we don't project a very good image to the rest of the world.  It makes me wonder what country will the anti-christ come from too, i think its here in the US. We have become the evil do'ers.

Because of greed we are slowly giving this country away, we have sent  our hard working fellow americans down the river, our free trade system will be one of our downfalls,  letting the rich people come into our country from other countries and letting them buy up everthing in realestate isn't going to help our country out at all.  Sending jobs overseas is just another nail in our coffin to. We have been losing jobs since the early 80's and its still happening today.  Its funny the last few manufacturing companies left here our politicians are trying to save them now, what about the others who left already its too late now to save it, its all over. Even our steel manufacturing is gone too.  Since the north and south will never be united what do you think is going to happen when we get attacked again from within?  Were doomed for failure.  Its our greedy politicians who are selling off america while they stuff their own wallets with the big oil profits they are receiving.  I also think some of this terrorist stuff is over blown too so it keeps us scared too like were sheep. Again the politicians are stuffing their wallets and bank accounts while were heading downhill doomed.