Author Topic: Recoil (Read 1507 times)

jh45gun · « **on:** July 14, 2005, 06:38:10 PM »

Just wondering I shot my 54 cal Underhammer rifle today for the first time. I had some preloaded tubes with me that had 80 grains of 777 and 425 grain Great Plains conicals. I now know why most of the short light rifles they make now have rubber buttpads on them. Or straight shotgun syle stocks. That curved brass buttplate on these guns is brutal with such light weight. The rifle weighs just under 7 pounds the shotgun is at 5 and 3/4. No way am I going to shoot that 12 guage until I come up with a pad to fit over the curved butt plate. Does any Co make one to fit over a Kentucky style stock or do I have to come up with one. I know they make them for standard shotgun stocks but these stocks are smaller so I am sure they would not fit. On a positive note the gun shot well I just shot it off hand at a target to get the peep sight on paper. On Sat I will go out and shoot it at the range to really dial in the sights and try for a group. I think I will start out at 60 grains for starters since I am using 777 which is a bit hotter than black. Ignition was positive using standard #11 caps and a very fast lock time. Looks like I got a winner here just got to tame the recoil down some. I can handle a lot of recoil with most guns but shooting this let you know you were shooting thats for sure. I showed them to my Gunsmith today and he liked them. Said the triggers felt good too so that made me feel good. Jim

Ramrod · « **Reply #1 on:** July 14, 2005, 08:03:46 PM »

I think you could have learned a little bit from studying black powder history. There is a pretty good reason the old guns weighed as much as they did. I think you just found out why by your self. Put some weight on those guns, then add at least a half pound more if you have to shoot 777.
Then you can skip the pad and not look like a sissy.

Slamfire · « **Reply #2 on:** July 14, 2005, 09:01:34 PM »

Greener wrote in his book on fowling that a fellah's gun oughta weigh 56 times as much as his shot charge, or 6 lbs for an ounce of shot. As for the recoil pad I've seen some advertized as being made for the SKS or Ruger #3, they might work. The SKS model was made to alter the length of pull, and the Ruger #3 was chambered in the .30-40 and .45-70.

jh45gun · « **Reply #3 on:** July 14, 2005, 09:52:55 PM »

Quote from: Ramrod

I think you could have learned a little bit from studying black powder history. There is a pretty good reason the old guns weighed as much as they did. I think you just found out why by your self. Put some weight on those guns, then add at least a half pound more if you have to shoot 777.
Then you can skip the pad and not look like a sissy.

Yea Ramrod I know my 45/70 Rollingblock weighs 12 pounds and is a joy to shoot, My Percussion gun ball shooter I built with a long Green mountain barrel weighs 8.5 pounds so it weighs a pound a half more but the recoil is not nearly as bad and is easy to shoot. Whats a guy to do the barrels were that short when I bought them and made for a inline which would have had the straight shotgun style buttplate or pad on it. I got the stocks for 10 bucks apiece so I went with them. I maybe could have cut off the curve and made them with straight buttplates or pads but that would have looked dumber on a full stock like these than a add on. At least I think so. Jim

Ramrod · « **Reply #4 on:** July 15, 2005, 03:38:07 PM »

Quote

I maybe could have cut off the curve and made them with straight buttplates or pads but that would have looked dumber on a full stock like these than a add on. At least I think so. Jim

I wonder if that's true. All the old military muskets had full stocks and wide, flat, or slightly rounded buttplates and they look pretty good to me. I have a replica 1863 Enfield musketoon that doesn't weigh over 7 lbs, yet it is perfectly comfortable to shoot with 560 grain slugs and 75 grains of powder. Probably a combination of dead straight stock and wide butt.
Those hook shaped buttplates were meant for roundball shooters, and with light (by modern standards) loads.

jh45gun · « **Reply #5 on:** July 15, 2005, 04:51:02 PM »

Them guns did not have the slender stocks like the Kentucky style either they were more boxy looking. I know weight does make a difference but then so does stock design. I do agree with you that this style stock was made for smaller calibers and that they did not use as large of charges with the lighter round balls. The heavy conicals will add to the recoil I understand that. Jim

ribbonstone · « **Reply #6 on:** July 15, 2005, 05:45:49 PM »

Lot depends on how you are built, but looking at those rifles (good job on those by the way) if I were to shoot them from a low bench or with my head held forward (kind of neck-streached out like with a modern rifle) would end up with the top curve (top "hump") of that butt plate sitting on my shoulder bone. Would hurt.

IF I could shoot them from a high bench with my head held more erect...and the butt plate's curve fitting into the meat under my shoulder bone...wouldn't hurt nearly so much.

Stcok shape makes a difference. Can change the stock or change the hold. For my build, the straighter the stock, the "lower" (more head forwrd) the hold. The more drop to the stock, the more erect my stance.

Wouldn't change the rifles...would either change my stance or sneek a "sissy pad" under my shirt when none of the guys at the range are looking.

jh45gun · « **Reply #7 on:** July 15, 2005, 09:02:02 PM »

Thanks Ribbonstone. :grin: My build is I am 6' 1" and on the heavy side. :eek: I am making some leather lace on pads to fit these to take some of the hardness out of those brass buttplates. One is a 54 cal like I said the other is a 12 guage and for that I definately want something on the stock for using heavy shot charges. Jim

BS · « **Reply #8 on:** July 16, 2005, 03:47:26 AM »

I just made a new stock for my rifled 12 ga. The old one was only 1 1/2"s wide, the new one is 2". I have checded the weight yet, but it should be about 8#s. I also made a new steel reciever to replace the light weight aluminum one. [for strenght and weight] Weight is your friend, in big bores.

Weight and recoil are trade offs. For hunting guns, that are seldom shot and carried a lot, make them light. For guns shot more freiquently, a little heavier won't hurt. :-D

ribbonstone · « **Reply #9 on:** July 16, 2005, 05:32:39 AM »

Have a couple of guns that tend to hurt when fired from a bench, but I never seem to mind when fired off hand even in practice. OF couse, with hair under the sights, none of us really notices the recoil.

Shotguns are a good example. Steel butt plates and large charges of shot and black get your attention when patterning or grouping ball...not nearly so punishing when you are loose and swing the gun on game. PArt of it is consentration on the game and not the recoil, but a lot of it is that you are loose and in motion...more likely to ride the recoil than fight it.

One of the guns is a 7 1/4 pound 10-ga. with steel butt...gets your attention.

FOr the benching rifles or shotgun patterning will put a strap on recoil pad under my shirt in summer (in winter, it's on top of my shirt but under the sweater or coat). Guess the idea is that (1) I like the looks of my guns as they are and (2) one strap on pad is a universal system...it works with anything you pick up.

jh45gun · « **Reply #10 on:** July 17, 2005, 09:01:38 AM »

Well made some butt pads out of leather. They feel good so they should tame the recoil some. Inside the cover is some more leather and a strip of rubber like stuff that is firm yet springy.

lostid · « **Reply #11 on:** July 17, 2005, 01:27:48 PM »

ya know i've been watching you build these guns fer a year now, and I kinda wondered what the heck you were doing,,now ya got two guns built out of two different stocks,,and a fine custom job you have done,,truth ,hat's off too ya.

Now, like all the beginners, you want to use max loads and heavey projectiles,,and suddenly you discover "recoil", :eek: ,hello??

why did you use that curved butt plate when you built them guns? why did you remove the cheek? well now you have too add stuff to the butt just to stop the hurt.(!?)(right?) see theres been about 400 years practice about how ta git a gun to fit a man,,,,,,,,,,(I Guess) even our "moderator", like every generation, has to "try it" his-self and learn,( if i was you, i'd pad the butt on that bethlehem stock up ta flat)(then study a thing called "reach" or "pull"), the other shorter drop stock? well good luck too ya,,,,,
I mean come on, jh45gun,, you have lock face on both sides of your custom underhammer rifles(?) look at the photo's,, that's like a left hand/right hand flint/cap/underhammer southern style kentucky kinda thing with brass and iron that needs a pad for the curved butt.
I guess they shoot,,Now, if you can find a market,,,,,

jh45gun · « **Reply #12 on:** July 18, 2005, 10:11:45 AM »

Quote from: lostid

ya know i've been watching you build these guns fer a year now, and I kinda wondered what the heck you were doing,,now ya got two guns built out of two different stocks,,and a fine custom job you have done,,truth ,hat's off too ya.
Now, like all the beginners, you want to use max loads and heavey projectiles,,and suddenly you discover "recoil", :eek: ,hello??

why did you use that curved butt plate when you built them guns? why did you remove the cheek? well now you have too add stuff to the butt just to stop the hurt.(!?)(right?) see theres been about 400 years practice about how ta git a gun to fit a man,,,,,,,,,,(I Guess) even our "moderator", like every generation, has to "try it" his-self and learn,( if i was you, i'd pad the butt on that bethlehem stock up ta flat)(then study a thing called "reach" or "pull"), the other shorter drop stock? well good luck too ya,,,,,
I mean come on, jh45gun,, you have lock face on both sides of your custom underhammer rifles(?) look at the photo's,, that's like a left hand/right hand flint/cap/underhammer southern style kentucky kinda thing with brass and iron that needs a pad for the curved butt.
I guess they shoot,,Now, if you can find a market,,,,,

Ok first of all the cheek piece came off because I AM left handed so why have it on there if I am not going to use it? Two. The stocks were precarved with the curve in the stock at the butt so that is what I followed. I have a ball shooter with the same stock and the recoil does not bother me at all but the rifle is heavier and longer. I suppose the heavier conical does make a difference in recoil but I do not see 80 grains of 777 as a max load. Yea they do shoot and I am not looking for no market just wanted to make use of the barrels I had on hand. Yea it may not be conventional and what can I say it may offend your sensibilitys of what a muzzle loader should look like but then if you ever see a book on underhammers there have been lots of ways to get the job done. Maybe not as unconventional as this is but the trigger pulls are good and they go bang when I shoot them. I suppose I shold have put flat but pads on them and I suppose I still could but I will try the sleeves first. Jim

jgalar · « **Reply #13 on:** July 18, 2005, 10:24:22 AM »

You may also try using a different powder. 777 always seems to kick me more than even heavier charges of other powders. I guess the way I'd describe it is the 777 hits all at once where other powders push.

jh45gun · « **Reply #14 on:** July 18, 2005, 11:03:31 AM »

Yea I thought about that that is why I think I will start out some loads at 60 grains. Jim

lostid · « **Reply #15 on:** July 19, 2005, 08:25:03 PM »

ty fer the come back Jim,,I was just teasing on about half of that,,but you have to admit those are "custom guns".
I understand about the lefty part,,my son is a cross-dominant right,,it's a pita!
Now you study some of the olde 'fuslis" , trade gun's or even newer bp arms like the TC renegage and you'll find a flater butt plate, the "curve" is actually a mid 19th century invention for shooting "up".(nuff said) But they cutt too deep in the butt, right?
The trouble with installing a curved butt plate in the first place is trigger-pull, the common being 13 1/2".(i'm a short stocky guy,,i like just a hair over 13"!)
Anyway's here's an idea for ya, if your comfortable using a sleeve on your gun and recoil is and issue,, find a flat butt padded shotgun plate for modern arms long/deep enough for your reach,,, cut the damn curve off your gun an install the modern butt, grind off the excess,, then cover THAT with a sleeve.
You'll have to study a bit on proper "heel to toe" angle on that stock cut(easy enough,check your buddies remington 870!),,ya follow what I mean???

The stock "sleeve" at any 'vous" can be explained away as infield "broken stock repair". :wink:
hhhmm,ever thought of that?

jh45gun · « **Reply #16 on:** July 20, 2005, 09:54:28 AM »

Thanks Lostid. I will try these sleeve pads first and if they do not work I may go with the flat pad idea. Yea these are different but work and the lock time is fast and sure so I am happy with that. Jim

big T · « **Reply #17 on:** February 16, 2006, 04:03:55 PM »

originally i was looking to add weight to the front of my .62 smoothbore to help with a steadier hold. while most shooters in matches make use of a range rod instead of the rod in the gun, i made a solid brass ramrod, drilled it and tapped it to be operational, and it added the weight i wanted. but in reference to your question, the extra weight also reduced the recoil .

Slamfire · « **Reply #18 on:** February 17, 2006, 03:18:46 PM »

There are two main factors in recoil. 1 is the weight of the projectile in pounds, and 2 is the velocity of the projectile in fps SQUARED!. Cuttin' back on the charge weight will reduce the velocity, and usin' round balls will reduce the weight of the projectile. We can safely ignore the jet effect of the departing gases. Can't help much with the smoothbore, other than to mention the light charge weights gainin' popularity in suppository shotgun shootin'.

commanche · « **Reply #19 on:** March 04, 2006, 08:01:38 AM »

Quote from: jh45gun

Just wondering I shot my 54 cal Underhammer rifle today for the first time. I had some preloaded tubes with me that had 80 grains of 777 and 425 grain Great Plains conicals. I now know why most of the short light rifles they make now have rubber buttpads on them. Or straight shotgun syle stocks. That curved brass buttplate on these guns is brutal with such light weight. The rifle weighs just under 7 pounds the shotgun is at 5 and 3/4. No way am I going to shoot that 12 guage until I come up with a pad to fit over the curved butt plate. Does any Co make one to fit over a Kentucky style stock or do I have to come up with one. I know they make them for standard shotgun stocks but these stocks are smaller so I am sure they would not fit. On a positive note the gun shot well I just shot it off hand at a target to get the peep sight on paper. On Sat I will go out and shoot it at the range to really dial in the sights and try for a group. I think I will start out at 60 grains for starters since I am using 777 which is a bit hotter than black. Ignition was positive using standard #11 caps and a very fast lock time. Looks like I got a winner here just got to tame the recoil down some. I can handle a lot of recoil with most guns but shooting this let you know you were shooting thats for sure. I showed them to my Gunsmith today and he liked them. Said the triggers felt good too so that made me feel good. Jim

now you know why i shoot light loads with my .50cal tc hawkis flintlock.i use 80grs of ffg and 370 maxi-ball.its nice to shoot and kills all bucks out to 100 yards.roundball, i use 70 to 80 grs of ffg for target .you can use 90 grs of ffg for maxi-ball BUT why.you are only shooting around 40 to 80 yards on most bucks .i see people at range knocking their head off and rubbing their shoulders.their shots are all over paper too. they FLICH do to recoil. you look out in snow in front of where they are shooting and blackpowder is unburned in snow. oh well, it seems that some think more powder farther bullet goes and more accurate. shots 100 yards and under with open sights, not necessary to load for bear. take care

smokepolehall · « **Reply #20 on:** March 23, 2006, 04:57:18 PM »

I find that conicals with powder charges over 100gr.s tend knock the snot out you. Round balls and sabots are easier on your shoulder. :grin: