What 223 Rem. ammo is best for "self-defense" ???

[Skeeterbaymac]

Deputy:

  Like I said in my post I am not arguing with the experts.  They sure know more than me. I was just commenting on my experience with the caliber, as I am retired federal law enforcement and military.  I have had a few training classes over the years (read thousands) and I am aware of shoot till the threat is stopped concept and the need for accurate fire. I  like the 223/556 round and I like the ar-15 platform.  I just have not had the results that I read about.  Your right there are many many outside forces that come into play, clothing being just one.  If your  experiences with the caliber have been different than mine I will not question or argue with you as I have not conducted any control'd tests on the subject.  

[DEPUTY]

No issues at all i fully understand i actually run the 75 grain stuff now as my current test bed.


we all understand that different  things add to the mix and there are no  same or exact  issues in all shootings.....body type size cothings etc..etc... al that matter is you went home

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and are worth something outside of the home. The 12 ga is not.  It's also not worth much inside the home. Try firing it without ear protection, at night, and see how well you can still see and hear, for instance. The 223 can be a handy gun, even with an effective sound suppressor mounted on it. The 12 ga cannot.

At typical defensive ranges (ie, 10 ft and less from the muzzle) the shotgun's pattern spread is at most 2" with buckshot, so you can easily miss a man with it.  Birdshot, smaller than #2, will not reliably penetrate both a heavy coat and the sternum, beyond  5-6 ft from the muzzle. It's not NEARLY as good a choice as the ignorant "think" that it is for home defense.

I don't even bother to own a shotgun. I'll use either the pistol for home-defense, or the AR-15 for riots, storms, shtf type of real combat stuff. Those without lots of training should stick to the 9mm HiPoint carbine for "home defense", using CorBon 100 gr PowRBall ammo, not the shotgun. HITTING (fast enough to save yourself) is NOT a "given" in any attack, not with a shotgun, not with any sort of firearm.  

The only thing that really helps your defensive shooting ability is lots of practice with your gun.  Shotguns are not welcome at most indoor ranges, the 9mm carbine is. 9mm practice ammo costs a lot less than 12 ga shells, and the 9mm is a lot easier to handle than a 12 ga pump. Shis is especially true with one hand, as you use a light, open a door, use a phone, hold a kid, look under a bed or behind clothes in a closet, etc.

The 75 gr bullets don't always do well in the more versatile 1 in 9 riflling twist. They usually require the 1 in 8" or one in 7" riflling, which don't handle the 55 gr bullets well, or the .22lr conversion unit. The Nosler Partition is still, after 50 years of big game experience, the softpoint by which all others are gauged.  It brings 3x the price of other softpoint bullets for a good reason. The reliability of its increased performance is worth it.

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and are worth something outside of the home. I favor the 60 gr Nosler Partitons, for controlled expansion and penetration.  They are expensive, and only available from Black Hills as loaded ammo.

The 12 ga is not very viable outside the home.  It's also not worth much inside the home. Try firing it without ear protection, at night, and see how well you can still see and hear, for instance. The 223 can be a handy gun, even with an effective sound suppressor mounted on it. The 12 ga cannot. The 9mm carbine is the choice for in-home use, over the shotgun, any day.

At typical defensive ranges (ie, 10 ft and less from the muzzle) the shotgun's pattern spread is at most 2" with buckshot, so you can easily miss a man with it.  Birdshot, smaller than #2, will not reliably penetrate both a heavy coat and the sternum, beyond  5-6 ft from the muzzle. It's not NEARLY as good a choice as the ignorant "think" that it is for home defense.

I don't even bother to own a shotgun. I'll use either the pistol for home-defense, or the AR-15 for riots, storms, shtf type of real combat stuff. Those without lots of training should stick to the 9mm HiPoint carbine for "home defense", using CorBon 100 gr PowRBall ammo, not the shotgun. HITTING (fast enough to save yourself) is NOT a "given" in any attack, not with a shotgun, not with any sort of firearm.  

The only thing that really helps your defensive shooting ability is lots of practice with your gun.  Shotguns are not welcome at most indoor ranges, the 9mm carbine is. 9mm practice ammo costs a lot less than 12 ga shells, and the 9mm is a lot easier to handle than a 12 ga pump. This is especially true with one hand, as you use a light, open a door, use a phone, hold a kid, look under a bed or behind clothes in a closet, etc.

Power is only rarely an issue in civilian self defense. It's well proven that over 90+% of the time, if you get your gun out and "on" the attacker in time for him to notice it, he will not make you hit him with a bullet. Since it will probablyl cost you $20,000+ to defend your shooting in criminal court, and ANOTHER $20,000+ to defend it in civil court, not having to fire is best. You are responsible for every shot, and bullets and pellets do weird things (like richochet and hit innocent people).

[SAWgunner]

I favor the 60 gr Nosler Partitons, for controlled expansion and penetration.  They are expensive, and only available from Black Hills as loaded ammo.

Actually, no, I can buy these and reaload them all day long...without Black Hills Permission.

The 12 ga is not very viable outside the home.  It's also not worth much inside the home. Try firing it without ear protection, at night, and see how well you can still see and hear, for instance. The 223 can be a handy gun, even with an effective sound suppressor mounted on it. The 12 ga cannot. The 9mm carbine is the choice for in-home use, over the shotgun, any day.

Once again...You need to spend a little less time on AR15.com and in Special Weapons for law enforcement periodicals and wake up.  A 12 guage shotgun has no more muzzle blast/flash than a 5.56mm...I know, I have used both in MOUT training.  Don't get me started on the suppressor crap (at least you didn't call it a silencer...you must be paying attention on the websites).

At typical defensive ranges (ie, 10 ft and less from the muzzle) the shotgun's pattern spread is at most 2" with buckshot, so you can easily miss a man with it.  Birdshot, smaller than #2, will not reliably penetrate both a heavy coat and the sternum, beyond  5-6 ft from the muzzle. It's not NEARLY as good a choice as the ignorant "think" that it is for home defense.

Again, and don't take my word for it, look it up.  At 10 feet, a 12 guage scattergun will inflict way more damage to human tissue than a 5.56mm projectile of any construction.

I don't even bother to own a shotgun. I'll use either the pistol for home-defense, or the AR-15 for riots, storms, shtf type of real combat stuff. Those without lots of training should stick to the 9mm HiPoint carbine for "home defense", using CorBon 100 gr PowRBall ammo, not the shotgun. HITTING (fast enough to save yourself) is NOT a "given" in any attack, not with a shotgun, not with any sort of firearm.  

Of course you don't own a shotgun, they don't look as cool as your rodded out AR witht he surefire forend grip and the ACOG with the GG&G flip up rear site..Tango Down forend grip, etc., etc.  You be sure to keep your AR around for riots and SHTF situations...what else are all of you and your SFOD-D and Blackwater buddies going to talk about?  Hah hah hah

The only thing that really helps your defensive shooting ability is lots of practice with your gun.  Shotguns are not welcome at most indoor ranges, the 9mm carbine is. 9mm practice ammo costs a lot less than 12 ga shells, and the 9mm is a lot easier to handle than a 12 ga pump. This is especially true with one hand, as you use a light, open a door, use a phone, hold a kid, look under a bed or behind clothes in a closet, etc.

I agree with you here about practicing....but there are 10 times the number of outdoor ranges than there are indoor.  Or how about doing something that really makes you a good shot.  Bird hunting (pheasant, chukkar, etc.).

Power is only rarely an issue in civilian self defense. It's well proven that over 90+% of the time, if you get your gun out and "on" the attacker in time for him to notice it, he will not make you hit him with a bullet. Since it will probablyl cost you $20,000+ to defend your shooting in criminal court, and ANOTHER $20,000+ to defend it in civil court, not having to fire is best. You are responsible for every shot, and bullets and pellets do weird things (like richochet and hit innocent people).

True again, except that it has been proven that most handgun projectiles overpenetrate far more often than a 5.56mm round.

I see right through you.