Author Topic: Lions with Marlins (Read 3087 times)

fknipfer · « **on:** March 02, 2006, 08:27:31 AM »

Question I have is this: Brown Bears on Kodiak Island weight up to 1500 to 1600lbs. Grizzly's kill and eat each other. African Lions weigh up to 500 to 600lbs and I don't think lions eat other (little more civilized I suppose). We put a brown bear and a lion together who gets eaten? My guess is the lion is table fare. If a Marlin 450 and 45/70 can take a brown bear why not a lion?

fknipfer

Ghoster · « **Reply #1 on:** March 04, 2006, 02:10:03 PM »

I have heard from several people that Ringling (Circus) put a Grizzly in a cage with a Lion. The Bear slapped the Lion with his paw, dead lion.

I have read in old naturalist books that the Siberian Tiger stalks and kills black and brown bear (from behind) with no trouble.

The bears have the strength, the cats have the moves.

It's kind of like the UFC, some styles (or animals styles) work against one animal, but not very well against another animal.

Dusty Miller · « **Reply #2 on:** March 04, 2006, 07:02:33 PM »

Ghoster, there's a world of difference between a lion and a tiger. A 450 lb lion is a large lion, a 600 lb tiger is a large tiger. As a matter of fact, Nikita Khruschev was once presented with a 700 lb Siberian Tiger.

peakoftherut · « **Reply #3 on:** March 04, 2006, 07:29:12 PM »

If you were to read some of Jim Corbett's books you would find that tigers go out there way to avoid the Himalayan black bears. He himself once witnessed a bear attack a tiger that was on a kill. They had a brutal fight and the tiger was run off. Since Brown bears are bigger my guess is they could take a tiger without to much trouble. Lions are thin skinned as are tigers so I think the 450 would work well. Corbett used to kill tigers with a .275 Rigby which I belive is about the same as a 7x57. On the other hand if any of these beasts were charging me I don't think it would be possible to be over gunned.

Downeaster · « **Reply #4 on:** March 17, 2006, 11:03:35 AM »

First, I am new to this forum but it appears like there are some interesting topics.

My opinion:

A large male Brown Bear could kill a Lion or Tiger. I'd put money on it. Also, if a 45/70, properly loaded, could handle a large bear, why not a Lion? I would think it could certainly handle a Leopard. Hell, Leopards aren't that much larger than our North American Mountain Lions, which can be dispatched of with a 357 Magnum or 30/30.

I understand that many PH's may not want their clients to use less than a 375 HH on the big 5 (and I could certainly understand when it comes to Elephants, Rhino's and Cape Buf - actually 375 HH is probably marginal).

Incidently, I did see the thread on the 45/70 vs 416 and I mostly agree with the PH's point of view. I also understand their are minimal energy requirements for hunting dangerous game in some African countries.

However, when it comes to the big cats, I don't see why a hot loaded 45/70 or 450 Marlin could'nt be used to dispatch these cats at closer ranges. In my mind, 5 rounds that could be cycled quickly by the lever action would be nice as well, wouldn't it?

If these calibers wouldn't be accepted - how about more powerful leverguns like the custom jobs Wild West Guns makes:
457 Magnum, which also will chamber the 45/70 &
50 Alaskan.

Check out the link below (power chart)

http://www.wildwestguns.com/Ammunition/PowerChart.gif

K.K · « **Reply #5 on:** March 29, 2006, 03:07:24 PM »

I've never hunted lions (except in my dreams), but piles of them have been killed with lesser calibers. Tradition aside, if the ranges were moderate, I'd feel safe (as safe as one can hunting lions) with a .450 Marlin. Don't quote me, but I believe that game as large a Cape Buff have been taken with such rifles.

dodd3 · « **Reply #6 on:** March 31, 2006, 12:58:24 PM »

i remember back in the late 70's an artical in one of the hunting mag's about
the ruger in 45/70 beeing used in africa to take lion lepard and buff all where one shot kills. val fogert of navy arms took the big 5 with a 58 cal muzzel loader ,allso turner kerckland of dixi gun worcks took a lot of game in africa with muzzel loaders.
bernie :wink:

jamaldog87 · « **Reply #7 on:** April 01, 2006, 07:56:56 AM »

i saw some show on t.v on monday were they were hunting buffs with a 45/70 and kill two with one shot(side by side). down here on the news some guy killed a water buff at 50yards with a 45/70 so shoot it if you got it.

pastorp · « **Reply #8 on:** April 15, 2006, 11:52:11 AM »

Downeasterner, While Wild West guns do make marlin based conversions chambered for the 50 alaskan they do not interchange with the 45/70 or the 457. Diferent diamiter bullets. My apology if I misunderstood your coment, but that is what I understood you to say that all 3 interchanged. Regards, Byron

Downeaster · « **Reply #9 on:** April 20, 2006, 04:03:18 AM »

Hi Pastorp,

No, I didn't mean that the 50 Alaskan was interchangible - only the 457 and 45/70.

dbking · « **Reply #10 on:** April 24, 2006, 01:27:58 PM »

There are tons of tombstones in Africa with names of hunters killed by lions. Early at the turn of the century alot of 'hunters' were killed while trying to take lions with a 280 Ross( look up the ballaistics). I am sure the same is true for alot of 'hunters' shooting big bear with small calibers. point is you are trying to compare 'Bears vs Lions'. It logically cannot be done.

The things you see when you don't have a gun! :-)

Downeaster · « **Reply #11 on:** July 18, 2006, 09:57:34 AM »

I knoe that Marlin leverguns can handle the Garrett and Buffalo Bore loads, which would, without question handle all African Plains Game, as well as Lions and Leopards (no problem). While African game laws may vary, Lions and Leopards could be taken out with less than some of the monster loads listed below

http://www.buffalobore.com/ammunition/default.htm#450M

Tell me those can't handle African Lion - please

EsoxLucius · « **Reply #12 on:** July 19, 2006, 09:04:41 AM »

"could be"

Sure, doesn't make it a good idea.

Downeaster · « **Reply #13 on:** July 20, 2006, 04:21:58 AM »

Exolucius said:

"could be"

Sure, doesn't make it a good idea.

See my response under the Marlin thread of today. I think some of you guys sell the big bore leverguns very short. Cherck out the ballistic info on the Buffalo Bore web site. Note, I'm talking high performance expanding bullets. Use them, I'd say you have one dead "Leo". You and other Bolt snobs forget that leverguns are far faster and better handling than heavybolt or double guns, as well.

EsoxLucius · « **Reply #14 on:** July 20, 2006, 08:45:44 AM »

I have owned, reloaded for, and killed animals with a Marlin 1895 45-70 since 1977. I think I know enough about it to know that while it can kill a lion, it is not a good choice and would be a stunt if undertaken. I've seen a lion take three hits from a 416 Remington and two solid hits from a 470 Nitro Express, still nearly kill a tracker, all within about 10 seconds. Go ahead and use your Marlin for lion and let us know how it turns out.

Bush Master · « **Reply #15 on:** July 21, 2006, 10:09:24 AM »

EsoxLucius, if what you say is correct, please explain this:

http://www.garrettcartridges.com/lupoindex.asp

EsoxLucius · « **Reply #16 on:** July 21, 2006, 10:57:28 AM »

He's lucky he brained it or he would have been lunchmeat. Well, if that last shot hadn't done it the PH was engaged. I never said it couldn't be done, I said it was a stunt. Which is exactly what Vince Lupo has done many times. Sure doesn't look like a 600 lbs. lion, but I wasn't there. When you take your lion with your Marlin 1895 45-70 let's hear about it.

Bush Master · « **Reply #17 on:** July 21, 2006, 11:29:36 AM »

I will never go to Africa, let alone shoot a lion. My brother is the great white hunter of the family and he took his with a .375 H&H. I was just wondering what you thought about Lupo, Randy Garrett and their claims.

JJHACK · « **Reply #18 on:** July 21, 2006, 11:30:25 AM »

I promise you that lion was never weighed because it would have been a stunning dissapointment to see it was about 300 pounds (maybe) not 600 pounds. Unfortunately they have the same error with the "220lb" leopard!

I have quite a bit of experience weighing black bears. I worked with a team of biologists to develop a length girth weight chart that can be seen on my web page. It does not take long weighing bears before you start to get really good at the guess. Go to my web page and see the chart for yourself. Hundreds of bears were weighed and measured to develop
this over more then 10 years in total.
www.huntingadventures.net Click on articles you should see it there

As far as that leopard goes............If the guy is 7 foot tall it might be 220 pounds but if he is of normal height say between 5'10" and 6'2" that leopard is more like 140-150 pounds. Still an awsome leopard but it's embarrasing that anyone would feel the need to embellish it further by saying it's 220 pounds.

AKMariner · « **Reply #19 on:** August 03, 2006, 08:13:49 PM »

I probably don't have the experience or expertise...or arrogance to be able to tell everyone what they should or shouldn't do, or to give advice about what firearm one should use for a particular game animal, but it seems to me that the whole point of hunting dangerous game is for the thrill and for the possiblility of a serious, life-threatening or leathal situation. In my humble and perhaps niave opinion, a .45-70 in one of the hot loads, with the inclusion of the .457 wwm and the .50 Alaskan, are certainly capable of taking the largest and most dangerous of game in the world with one, well-placed shot...and the ability to send three or more backing the first up in close succession adds to my confidence in the Guide gun. Besides, it was said earlier that even the mighty .470 Nitro Express has failed to anchor its prey immediately. I wonder how terrified the shooter was when he realized that he actually had to swing that behemoth around and chamber another round into that heavy and slow bolt-action within that stated ten-second span....

JJHACK · « **Reply #20 on:** August 04, 2006, 02:54:41 AM »

A 470 Nitro express is a shot from a double rifle not a bolt action. Having a rimmed case it's unlikely anyone would have a Bolt action custom built for that case design.

I suppose anything is possible though.

EsoxLucius · « **Reply #21 on:** August 04, 2006, 04:21:00 AM »

http://www.weshixon.com/simbaflash.html

Here is an example of what can go wrong even with experienced people using appropriate weapons. That is the PH, Peter Chipman under the lion. If you have confidence in your Marlin 1895, by all means get your lion with it and come back and tell us all about it.

DWTim · « **Reply #22 on:** August 04, 2006, 06:24:01 AM »

Here's another example of something gone wrong, but not as bad as the video:

http://www.gunsmagazine.com/Ftriple.html

Rather long, but here's the gist of the story: The client shot a lion in the rear with a 375 H&H. Instead of passing through, the bullet impacted the meat in its stomach, and disintegrated. While tracking the wounded cat, they were nearly ambushed by two lionesses. One took two hits with cartridges much more powerful than a .45-70, and still had to be put down with a .357 magnum round to the head. The other was frightened off. When they came across the wounded lion, he still put up a fight. He took hits in the chest from a .375 H&H and a .450 NE (with a 500 grain bullet). He had to be put down with 5 shots from a .357 magnum.

jamaldog87 · « **Reply #23 on:** August 04, 2006, 11:41:57 AM »

well if i was hunting lions from a tree( i saw this on ESPN's hunt sunday) the 45/70 would do. Myself i will not be hunting lions, there too wild for me!

TreyAzagthoth · « **Reply #24 on:** August 04, 2006, 12:02:52 PM »

kitties can climb too

STexhunter · « **Reply #25 on:** August 09, 2006, 05:33:58 AM »

About this critter vs. whatever. My 2 cents worth is, its not about the size of the critter in the fight but the size of the fight in the critter. While I load some pretty hot loads in my Ruger #3, I wouldn't hunt lion with it, not that it won't kill one, a garden variety 270 or 30/06 will kill one too. I feel that if I ask if this caliber or that is big enough, then I don't have enogh confidence in the rifle. I believe in big holes and shot placement.