Author Topic: .223 frustration (Read 1519 times)

sbhooper · « **on:** March 19, 2006, 07:11:54 AM »

I have owned a Handi in .22 mag for quite some time and it will shoot CCI maximags into one inch at 100 yards all day long. I recently bought one in .223 and it is the most frustrating rifle that I have ever tried to shoot. I have put literally hundreds of rounds through the thing trying to get it to shoot 40 grain bullets and it plain won't. I went to 50 grainers and it does pretty well and found that it shoots 50 grain Hornady spire points extremely well (I shot one group that mic'd .30). It also loves the Sierra 53 grain hollowpoint. The gun also seems extremely sensitive as to how you hold it on the sand bags. Is this just me or are these guns that funky? I am going to try the Sierra 45 grain spitzer as a friend gave me some. I doubt that I will ever buy another one of these if this gun is any indication. I truly live how it handles and the trigger on mine is fantastic. I even sent it back to H&R to make sure something wasn't wrong with the gun originally. They recrowned the barrel. I have free floated the barrel also.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #1 on:** March 19, 2006, 07:20:44 AM »

Is the .223 a Superlight??? Have you tried the Win whitebox 45gr JHP?

Tim

knight0334 · « **Reply #2 on:** March 19, 2006, 07:21:29 AM »

Sorry, must ask these..

Does she lock up tight? Have you tried Winchester's white box or Black Hills' ammo? scope, rings and base tightly mounted?

easttexashunter · « **Reply #3 on:** March 19, 2006, 07:25:25 AM »

My .223 handi shoots great.

With any bullets I use. Never really get outside of an inch at 100. Not bragging or anything. But H&R checked the rifle out and didnt find anything?

cpj · « **Reply #4 on:** March 19, 2006, 07:56:08 AM »

Yep, they can be testy, but I havent had any problems with mine. First thing is to take it apart and make sure that is free from the factory gease crud and metal shavings. I would try the winchester white box ammo that you can get at walmart. Its 14 bucks for 40 rounds, and shoots well out of my rifle and as well as everyone elses that I have heard. Everyone that I have heard that reloads, has never found any ammo that shoots better than the factory stuff. Dont know why, thats just how it is I guess. Make sure that you are resting it close to the hinge, mine wont shoot worth a hoot if its rested out towards the muzzel end of the forearm.

myarmor · « **Reply #5 on:** March 19, 2006, 07:56:49 AM »

They are very very sensitive how they are held, and trigger pulled. Sounds like you found what it likes, then why not just shoot what it likes? Is yours a 1-12 or a 1-9 twist?
-Aaron

sbhooper · « **Reply #6 on:** March 19, 2006, 01:01:21 PM »

I will try to run down some answers for everyone. I tried the white box ammo and it was not that much better than V-max or ballistic tips. I polished the bore before I ever started shooting. I free-floated the barrel and I cleaned it extremely well, in fact it seems to shoot better with a dirty barrel which suits me just fine :grin: . The rings and mounts are fine and, in fact, I exchanged the Cabela's Alaskan 4.5-14 scope when I first started shotgunning the groups because I thought the POI was changing-that is how bad it was. I tried v-max, ballistic tips, and Sierra hollow points-all in 40 grain-as they are all good performers in MOST guns. I tried the 50 grain V-max and ballistic tips and they shot usually within an inch and half or so. The Sierra 53 grain hollow point shot very consistenly. The Hornady SPSX was OK, but did not compare with the regular old cheap spire point. I shot a box of Rem 55 grain factory hollow points that a buddy gave me and they, too, were OK but nothing to write home about. The 50 grain Hornadys over 22 grains of IMR4198 puts out about 3150 fps in this rifle and is a very good load. I am going to try a few 45 grain Sierra spitzers if the weather ever clears up. It appears that this gun does not like boat tailed bullets at all compared to the plain old flat base which makes shooting somewhat cheaper. I have had a blast shooting it and experimenting, but it is the first rifle that I have ever owned that was so rediculously finicky about what you feed it and how you shoot it. I truly love the design and feel of the rifle and it makes a great truck gun due to its size, but I think that it will be the last one I ever buy.
Oh, I forgot. It should be a 1:12 twist and it locks up like a bank vault.

Norseman112 · « **Reply #7 on:** March 19, 2006, 02:30:39 PM »

Sorry to hear had to go through alot to find a load that it liked. I have had pretty good luck with my .223 ultra. Shoots dime groups If I do my part. I use IMR 4198 also.

John

nomosendero · « **Reply #8 on:** March 19, 2006, 02:42:31 PM »

Is the fact that your gun does not like 40Gr. bullets the main problem? I
may be unluckey but I have had this sort of thing happen alot, with M700's, Savages, Handi's, whatever. Sometimes they just won't shootr the bullet weight they should. You have one 50 gr. load that shoots,
though maybe not the bullet you want, have you tried the Sierra Blitz kings? Sometimes this happens even with high dollar rifles, not just Handi's, I would not give up yet.

Ditchdigger · « **Reply #9 on:** March 19, 2006, 03:22:42 PM »

Hooper have you tried the moly coated 40 Vmax's yet? Shoot about 15 or 20 rds. of them and then check for accurcy.Mine will not shoot worth a darn with out the moly coating in the barrel. H335,26.5 grs. and 40 gr. Vmax's is all mine will shoot. Everything else shoots 1 1/2" or worse.Digger

trotterlg · « **Reply #10 on:** March 19, 2006, 05:47:56 PM »

People here know my flustration with trying to get a Handi to shoot. An old story, however, in my experience with other rifles, a barrel that does not like boat tail bullets most likely has a crown problem of some sort. It may be so small you cannot see it, however I bet you will find something. Boat tails amplify any defect in the crown because the exiting part of the bullet is at the end of the barrel longer than a flat base bullet is. Some will not believe me, but take a look, clean up the crown a little or have it re-crowned before you throw it away. If it doesn't shoot then, make a Grape stake out of it and move on, life is short. Larry

warf73 · « **Reply #11 on:** March 19, 2006, 07:34:16 PM »

All I can say is shoot what it likes or get ride of it, problem solved.

I'm not trying to show disrespect but there are a few facts about rifles/pistols.

Either they will shoot a certain grain of bullet or designe or they won't, if they won't then change it.

If you are set in shooting 40gr. bullets and the rifle won't dump the rifle.

But you have already said it will shoot.

Quote

"I went to 50 grainers and it does pretty well and found that it shoots 50 grain Hornady spire points extremely well (I shot one group that mic'd .30)"

Thats pretty dam good in my books but if you can't live with shooting 50 grainers then it's time to move on.

Warf

sbhooper · « **Reply #12 on:** March 20, 2006, 06:41:41 AM »

The gun was returned to the factory and they claim that they redid the crown.

It shoots the 50 grain spire points real well and I can live with that. I just can't believe how touchy this gun is to shoot. I really wanted to shoot the 40s because I have a Browning lever .243 that shoots 65 grain V-Max into nearly one hole and I have a Handi in .22 mag that shoots great. I wanted something potent, but on the light end. I am going to try some 45 grain Sierras and probably at some point, some speers, but I can definitely live with the 50 grainers and I won't get rid of the gun just because I can't shoot the little stuff in it. There are still lots of bullets to play with.

One thing that I found puzzling during my testing is that when I loaded 50 grain bullets over a max load of BLC(2), I got great consistency, but poor velocity. I was only around 2900 fps with that powder and both Varget and IMR 4198 were at least a couple hundred fps faster. I did it with mag primers and without and the standard primer was actually more consistent. Has anyone else had this happen to them with BLC(2)?

mitchell · « **Reply #13 on:** March 20, 2006, 07:12:21 AM »

let me get this right you have a gun that shoots .3 groups and your complaining about the accuracy?

?

you want to sell it??? i'll give you $5 for such a bad shooter.

sbhooper · « **Reply #14 on:** March 20, 2006, 07:56:18 AM »

The thing that has frustrated me about this gun is how many rounds I had to shoot through it to finally get that .3 inch group. I have owned a lot of rifles and I have never had one that is even close to as touchy about how it is held on the sandbags and the load that it shoots. I have Savages, Remingtons, and Brownings and I have never had a gun that was so spastic. I have never had a problem getting any of my other rifles to shoot Hornady bullets either flat base or boat tail. I guess that it was inevitable that I finally get a finicky one. My H&R 22 mag is no where near as touchy.

If you will read my posts again, you will see that I said I will load the 50s and be happy with it and I have enjoyed playing with the gun. I guess the learning curve with the H&R rifles is just a bit longer. I have no intention of getting rid of it and will burn many more pound of powder and lots of bullets trying to overcome its idiosyncracies. I will continue to post my future results now that I have a base load that I can always go back to.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #15 on:** March 20, 2006, 08:11:12 AM »

Glad your not giving up on them

Your right..some of these rifles can be a bit per-snickey when it comes to finding the perfect load in them..I have had a bunch of them have a prefence for the Nosler bullets over anything else..and it makes no rime or reason why it should..but..it just works out that way. As too how they are shot..they are unlike any bolt or lever gun..and have a certain preference as to how they are positioned when shot from the bench..this has been posted enough on in the past to write a book on the subject. A lot of us have been experimenting with different bedding techniques to try to eliminate this disparity..and have had some luck with using RTV gasket material as a bedding agent..I'm not saying it will help in your situation..but something you may wish to investigate further. You also asked about BL-C2 giving lower velocities..I have found just the opposite velocity wise of what you have had.This was in the 308-30-06 cases..not the 223 cases..BL-C2 has always given me very good velocity and consistancy in these..

Good Luck

Mac

aulrich · « **Reply #16 on:** March 20, 2006, 09:00:07 AM »

One question I don't think it got answered is your gun an ultra-light or Normal/bull profile

safetysheriff · « **Reply #17 on:** March 20, 2006, 09:28:06 AM »

suggested bench techniques:

rest the rifle on the fore-end just ahead of the frame, so it's on a relatively flat portion of the forearm. remove the sling-swivel studs. shoot off a rolled-up piece of denim or towel which is relatively slippery. do not shoot off of a solidly-filled sandbag or off a piece of leather/suede which has too much friction. pull the rifle tightly into your shoulder with the hand holding the fore-end. do not squeeze the grip on the wooden stock but hold it easily with light pressure while applying a straight-back touch to the trigger. If your trigger pull weight is too great your shooting will suffer.......

you must control your breathing when shooting these rifles...holding your breath at the instant when you 'trip the trigger'.

if you rest the stock of the rifle anywhere but where i've noted above -- such as where the bottom of the stock is tapered -- it will react to the recoil and throw your shooting out the window. however, if you should rest the barrel on a thickly-padded rest, with soft padding underneath the barrel, you will move the pivot point for the firearm further away from your shoulder and this actually Can help to improve accuracy. i do it in the field shooting off a set of sticks. it really helps.

ss'

sbhooper · « **Reply #18 on:** March 21, 2006, 09:30:24 AM »

My barrel is the standard configuration-just a plain ole Handi.
The benchrest tips are exactly as I have found to work with my rifle. I was afraid that it was just me! Has anybody ever figured out why these guns act that way? It seems like they lock up so tight and the forend fits tight enough that it should not be an issue. The one thing about the .223 is that it is economical to play with and you don't get beat up at the bench like a heavy caliber. I will continue to experiment.

Funny you should mention the Nosler bullets. A friend of mine gave me some Cabelas "Critter Ridders" to try. They were the old Nosler solid base. The gun loved them, and of course, they were discontinued in '03. It appears that Cabelas got the last of the lot and sold them very cheaply as their own varmint bullet. The story of my life!

sbhooper · « **Reply #19 on:** March 22, 2006, 01:07:30 PM »

The saga continues...
With max charges of 4198 and Varget, the 45 grain Sierras were not that great. Just to do some more testing, I bought a box of 55 grain Sierra spitzers. I shot them with varying loads of 4198, Varget, and BLC2. It loved the BLC2. The first group that I shot with 27.5 grains was around a half inch with a fourth called flyer that opened it to 3/4-1 inch. The problem was the same as with the 50s, in that the velocity stunk. The load was clocking less than 2900 fps. I then switched to the other powders. The 4198 was generally pretty crappy even reducing the load.

Now comes the interesting part. I switched to the Varget with 27.5 grains and the results were not great. I started playing with the load and tried several reduced loads. 27.1 was not too great and 26.8 and 26.9 were also mediocre. I tried 27 grains even and shot a small group and then did it a second time and I shot a group that was probably around .5-.7 inches, but I did not mic it. This was very good, but the strange part was that if I varied the powder up or down, the velocity sucked. I got 3096 fps at the 27 grain load. I only shot two shots over the chrono, but the deviation was only 6 fps. Talk about a sweet spot!! So now I have another goto load, but I really don't want to shoot 55s.

This is getting interesting.

safetysheriff · « **Reply #20 on:** March 22, 2006, 01:24:44 PM »

just for the fun of it, if it hasn't been done already, i suggest that you de-burr the flash holes inside the brass and use a primer pocket reamer to uniform the brass. make sure that all of your brass is trimmed to a consistent length. then, the only Lee tool i suggest ever being used, use their Factory Crimping die on your ammo' with a medium crimp on the rounds. do not over crimp.....

the de-burring operation is not an aggressive use of a tool. it is a mild removal of any burrs left inside the case without opening up the flash hole unduly. a too-large flash hole creates ignition problems oftentimes.

see if that doesn't help with a tough-to-ignite powder like BL(C)-2, with both accuracy and velocity.

let us know,

ss'

cheatermk3 · « **Reply #21 on:** March 22, 2006, 03:23:48 PM »

I second the motion to inside deburr your flashholes.

Also, 3100 fps with a 55-grain bullet is definately a sweet spot for the 223.

sbhooper · « **Reply #22 on:** March 24, 2006, 03:22:53 AM »

The flash holes are done-always have been. The BLC2 has great accuracy, but the velocity just plain isn't there for some reason. I am not going the crimp route because there are other options. Has anybody tried the Ramshot TAC in these guns? It looks like it is on par with Varget as far as burn rate and would definitely meter better.

This is one of the few guns that I have ever owned where I can't wait to get back to the range to try something else! The frustration has not all been in vane!

Ditchdigger · « **Reply #23 on:** March 24, 2006, 10:51:09 AM »

SB I know the feeling and what you're going through. I went through bullet made,and 7 different powders before I found any thing that would shoot less than 1".I put over 400 rds through the barrel,flitzed the barrel several times,and tried every primer made.I also changed scopes very often,thinking they were bad,and finally the moly bullets worked with a bipod and business cards in front of the mounting lug..6" is the best it will do and thats all there is to it with this rifle. I just finished working up a load for my 204 that shot 2 groups and they avg. .235" center to center at 100 yds. I think I'll keep this 1( CZ527 Varmit) Digger

Mac11700 · « **Reply #24 on:** March 24, 2006, 02:06:31 PM »

Quote

Funny you should mention the Nosler bullets. A friend of mine gave me some Cabelas "Critter Ridders" to try. They were the old Nosler solid base. The gun loved them, and of course, they were discontinued in '03. It appears that Cabelas got the last of the lot and sold them very cheaply as their own varmint bullet. The story of my life!

Ok...so why don't you try some of the newsolid base 40 grainers if your gun loves them?It would be worth a try just to see how they preform wouldn't it?

http://www.nosler.com/index.php?p=11&b=5&s=17

Since your shooting the standard profile barrel..try some Winchester 748 powder... Rem 7-1/2 primers and the Winchester case...Nosler's 5th edition list this as the most accurate load for this bullet...with a 96% loading density...start at 26 grains=3304fps...to 28.0grains=3547 fps...then try some Benchmark also a 96% load density..start load 26.0 grains=3603 fps...max load 28.0 grains=3860fps...

Mac

safetysheriff · « **Reply #25 on:** March 24, 2006, 04:19:32 PM »

Quote from: sbhooper

I am not going the crimp route because there are other options. Has anybody tried the Ramshot TAC in these guns? It looks like it is on par with Varget as far as burn rate and would definitely meter better.

This is one of the few guns that I have ever owned where I can't wait to get back to the range to try something else! The frustration has not all been in vane!

are you using some lightweight brass? winchester brass is lighter (usually) than remington, having thinner brass in the neck as well. that gives you a lower load density and less working pressure (usually) than you get with a heavier case (for a given weight of propellant) and a milder grip on the projectile before it is released. those two characteristics can negatively affect ignition. so, too, can the use of a lightweight projectile in front of a relatively slow, medium-speed powder. BL(C)-2 is probably best with .224" diameter projectiles weighing 55 grains and over. I have used bulk wc-846 -- which is similar -- with 50 gr' Hornady spire points using Rem' brass and 7 1/2 BR primers to achieve good ignition. But....wc-846 is a little bit faster than BL(C)-2, which helps.

just some more thoughts,

ss'

sbhooper · « **Reply #26 on:** March 25, 2006, 04:21:43 AM »

I did not realize that Nosler was making the solid base in anything less than 6mm. I may try them, but the gun did not like the flat base Sierra 40 grain hollow point. I have about concluded that it does not like the 40s in any way shape or form.

Looking at the ballistics, I don't think the 40s are enough better than the 50s to matter anyway for the average shooter and the 50s will perform better on coyotes.

Ditchdigger. It sounds like you have had even more frustrations than I have. So far, this gun shoots Hornady 50 spire points, Sierra 53 hollowpoints, and 55 Sierra spitzers pretty well. The Hornady 50s performed well with all powder tried-Varget, IMR4198, and BLC2. The 53 Sierras were also good all around. The 55 grainers seemed to prefer 27 grains of Varget to any IMR4198 load, but also liked the BLC2 in spite of the 2800+ velocity.

Just for fun, I tried the 27 grains of Varget behind the 55 grain Sierra and used mag primers. The groups were not as good and the velocity had much worse variation.

I think that I am going to settle on the 50 grain spire points and then start tweaking the load. I am going to try it with H322 just to see how much of a difference it is from Varget. I really like the Varget, though, as it is super in my .243 with 65 grain V-Max, and my Rem. Model 600 .308. This allows me to cut down on how many powders I have laying around.

Has anyone compared the velocity in these rifles using Varget and H322?

Mac11700 · « **Reply #27 on:** March 25, 2006, 06:52:49 AM »

Quote

I did not realize that Nosler was making the solid base in anything less than 6mm. I may try them, but the gun did not like the flat base Sierra 40 grain hollow point. I have about concluded that it does not like the 40s in any way shape or form.

If you haven't tried them..how do you know? These aren't flat base bullets...they are solid base boattails..and they do have 50 grainers as well..

Mac