Author Topic: See-through Scope Rings (Read 1985 times)

Mac11700 · « **Reply #30 on:** March 29, 2006, 07:18:50 PM »

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To facilitate the use of the aftermarket iron sights I mounted on my 30-30 NEF, I recently had a GM gunsmith mount see-through scope rings on it as well for ranges exceeding fifty yards.

Greysky:

I looked back over this a little closer..and it begs a question from me...Did your smith remove the Weaver scope rail and re-drill and tap the reciever? Also..what type of aftermarket sites did you have put on?

..

See thru mounts may work for some folks..but I am not one of them..I've seen several deer missed by folks using them to shoot at running game thru thick undergrowth..where if they had been using a 1x or 2x scope..they could have seen the branches they were shooting thru..and been able to pick their shots a little more carefully.

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Mac

No offense, but if you don't consider $180 for a scope to be expensive, you have either had time to acquire a little money, are single, or never known what it is to have to save to buy the things you like. Any of these is not a bad thing, just not what I am capable of.

I have to save to be able to afford my Tascos.

Darat100..Yes..I've had time to aquire a little money..but even when I was only making $2.00 an Hour..I could still put things in law-a-way..and get a better quality scope..and did so on many occassions..I learned from my Father..don't scrimp on the optics for your rifles..it's better to have 1 good set up like this..

Than several cheap scopes..I can take this one off..put it on another Handi..and have it zerod in a matter of minutes and continue hunting..The scope is bright and clear..the rings are rock solid..and it is a quality scope that will repeat thru the full settings..Yes..it cost more...and it might take you a little while longer to save up for it..but in the end..it is well worth the extra...it's a scope that will last a very long time..and if it breaks....it will get fixed or replaced without hassle..if I elect to sell it..the person buying it will have that same option...There is a secondary market for used scopes..if you can..try to buy a used Golden Ring Leupold and save a-lot..check with your local gun dealers..and see if they can hold a good used one for you and let you pay on it...By the way....my first Leupold took me a 1-1/2 years to save for...and I had to shoot open sites till I could afford to get it out of law-a-way..I've never been ashamed or sorry I had to wait..mad yes..but sorry or ashamed no...it took a-lot to save up for it at that time...and I did without a-lot of things in order to get it too...so yes..I know full well what it's like..My first Handi was the same way..it took me 4 months to get it out of lay-a-way as well...and it was a used and abused one..not a new one...many many years ago...

Mac

quickdtoo · « **Reply #31 on:** March 29, 2006, 07:30:12 PM »

Rifle cant is another reason why really high scope mounting as in see-thru rings is a disadvantage and can cause POI changes that are bad enough to cause a miss or a real poor hit on a game animals. The farther the scope is above the bore of the rifle, the more cant will affect POI, particularly at longer ranges where the scope would likely be used instead of the iron sights.

Tim

bluebayou · « **Reply #32 on:** March 29, 2006, 08:55:20 PM »

I buy most of the arguments above. I just don't see how the ring height affects trajectory. I might be splitting hairs here about POI/POA or something, but TRAJECTORY is not affected. I understand that high rings, see through or otherwise, would affect point blank shots.

I think my biggest reason not to use see throughs would be that they look goofy. Second would be that they look flimsy, like someone might have pointed out.

To further cloud the issue, why is everyone against see throughs but will use extra highs with their 50mm scopes? Why use 50's for that matter, some of you have mentioned the Simmons 6.5-20 which is a big, honking scope.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #33 on:** March 29, 2006, 09:28:00 PM »

Even the 50mm Simmons WTC18 doesn't need high rings, but even a lot of smaller scopes do depending on the power ring/ocular bell position to clear the hammer which is the problem 99% of the time. This one is mounted in medium rings on my .280 Handi.

Tim

Greysky · « **Reply #34 on:** March 30, 2006, 12:42:12 AM »

Quote from: blaster2560

Totaly against anything is not seeing both sides. Dang, if it works for you it works.
John

Since we're not discussing a moral issue here, but see-through scope rings, I agree with you... And they do work for us. :-)

Greysky · « **Reply #35 on:** March 30, 2006, 01:53:22 AM »

Quote from: Mac11700

Greysky:

I looked back over this a little closer..and it begs a question from me...Did your smith remove the Weaver scope rail and re-drill and tap the reciever? Also..what type of aftermarket sites did you have put on?..

See thru mounts may work for some folks..but I am not one of them..I've seen several deer missed by folks using them to shoot at running game thru thick undergrowth..where if they had been using a 1x or 2x scope..they could have seen the branches they were shooting thru..and been able to pick their shots a little more carefully.Mac

There was no scope rail to remove. The smith simply drilled three holes in the barrel to accommodate the see-through rings.

I mounted a Millet rear sight myself. A hole needed to be drilled to accommodate the Marbles front sight, so a smith mounted it for me.

BTW, It is a common misconception that inexpensive is synonymous with poor quality. I think we would agree that a relatively inexpensive Handi can shoot just as well as a much more expensive Ruger. But I doubt we would agree that a Tasco scope can function just as well as a Leupold. I spent $150.00 for my used 30-30 Handi. I am not about to spend $180.00 for optics that will not perform any better for me than the inexpensive optics I use.

nomosendero · « **Reply #36 on:** March 30, 2006, 02:21:50 AM »

blaster2560
Being totally against something can also mean that the alternative has allready been tried, as in this case with some & the inferior discarded.

Greysky
No doubt it is not a moral issue, but a chance to tell others who
are wondering how to set up a rifle (beginners, especially) the advantages & disadvantages of the item or subject in question. If it works for you, I
don't think anyone will be upset with that.

bluebayou
The actual bullet drop will be the same regardless of the sight system because the bullet does not know or care what sights are on the gun.
However, the traj. charts are based on a scope being a given height above the centerline of the bore, they have to be in order to determine where the bullet path will intersect where the cross hair is looking, the sight-in yardage & the traj. is plotted based on that. With a see-through
mount the chart will NOT be valid for this reason & will be way off. As I said before you could plot your own traj. chart but it will be tough due to
the fact that it will be difficult at best to have a consistant cheek weld &
parralex will be the undesired result. And all for nothing I might add.

darat100 · « **Reply #37 on:** March 30, 2006, 02:39:19 AM »

Mac

I understand saving, that is not a problem at all. However, you said you saved for a 1.5 years for your first one. Now, the question is, what do you do for your two sons while you are saving for that one. See, I don't just have to have one setup to hunt with.

Sometimes nice, expensive items would be a much better answer, and I know they would last longer, but for some of us they just aren't an option, and when you tell someone to just go spend $600 for 3 scopes, you just come off a little on the snotty side. I buy handis because I love them, but I bought the first because it was an inexpensive option for us, and most calibers don't have iron sights, so we make due with cheap optics.

Mac, please understand, I am not trying to come off rude. I have learned a ton from the guys on this sight, and several from your comments, just a thought.

Thanks

Hammerspur · « **Reply #38 on:** March 30, 2006, 02:41:53 AM »

"Totaly against anything is not seeing both sides."

This thread reminds me of a discussion in the magazines decades ago . For those who ride motorcycles you may remember this topic, which involved "counter-steering" ...turn left on a single track vehicle (bicycle, motorcycle) the vehicle leans right, ergo it TURNS right, not left.
The bally-hoo of denial that flooded the press was incredible. Some guys even said they tried it and crashed, or whatever. (Many were 'veteran' riders!) If they lost control, it had nothing to do with the physics of countersteering just denial of reality and their own ineptitude.

"Since we're not discussing a moral issue here,"

If we were there would be plenty of room for multiple sides. Since we are not, the two sides are 'understood' and 'not so much so.'

If you psych yourself out enough almost any less than self evident facts can seem untrue or contradictory. Sometimes you just can't teach an old dog new tricks.

nomosendero · « **Reply #39 on:** March 30, 2006, 02:51:12 AM »

Quality is not the reason that a Handi is much less expensive than a Ruger. Manufacturing cost is drastically different, apples to oranges at best. We are talking about a break open single shot with relatively few
parts vs a bolt gun with a great deal of parts that have to be machined & fitted. Just look at the bolt parts for a Ruger, for example. You can spend more for a break open & you can pay more for a bolt gun than a Ruger, but the comparison will be the same for the same reasons. In addition to the manufacturing cost, look at the difference in materials cost which is dramatic.

I use some scopes other than Leupold, but Leupold is allways a great choice in the VX1 & above. As Mac would be quick to point out, the eye relief & especially the non critical (don't have to be in one exact spot for eye relief) eye relief is important. This is a big deal, especially if you shoot a rifle from different positions. The Leupold has a very well deserved reputation for being rugged.
Tasco can be used, but the quality is not in the same league at all. The eye relief is short & the eye relief range is small. They have no reputation for being rugged whatsoever. I have used the World Class & the World Class plus on guns that I shoot but do not count on for serious hunts. I
am slowly but surely selling them off. Anyone want a couple?

nomosendero · « **Reply #40 on:** March 30, 2006, 04:01:12 AM »

Tim
You are right about the cant, it would be magnified with a see-through set-up. On top of that, it would be harder to see if your scope is canted, as you would have an inconsistant cheek-weld.

nomosendero · « **Reply #41 on:** March 30, 2006, 04:06:52 AM »

Mac
Now you did it!!!
I have been trying to forget that 338-06 discussion we had. :lol:

MSP Ret · « **Reply #42 on:** March 30, 2006, 05:14:12 AM »

Greysky, could you do me a favor please, if possible please advise me what brand and model # of see through mounts were mounted on your Handi? Also what guns did the package they came in say they would fit? Are both rings mounted on the chamber area or on the barrel or one on the chamber and the front one on the barrel? Could you post a picture of your set up please, they say one pictire is worth a thousand words and besides the info on the see through rings/mounts the picture would help to see exactly where they were mounted. I have already expressed my feelings about see through mounts, I think they work and work well for hunting in the woods. I am interested in putting a set of see through mounts on at least one of my Handis. Thanks and don't let those who disagree with you get you down, they don't have to use the see through mounts if they don't want to. I agree this type of scope mount may not be real classic looking or the one of the better looking mounts around but mine have worked and worked well for years!!!....<><.... :grin:

Mac11700 · « **Reply #43 on:** March 30, 2006, 06:57:45 AM »

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and when you tell someone to just go spend $600 for 3 scopes, you just come off a little on the snotty side

I never told you to go spend $600 for 3 scopes..I thought we were talking about 1 scope for 1 rifle....

Quote

I understand saving, that is not a problem at all. However, you said you saved for a 1.5 years for your first one. Now, the question is, what do you do for your two sons while you are saving for that one. See, I don't just have to have one setup to hunt with.

My 2 sons will learn the same way I did..they will learn on open sites first and become proficiant at that..then when they want to buy a scope...they will use their own money that they have earned and saved to purchase one.They will choose the one they want..the one they can see thru the best....They may or may not pick the one I would choose..but this is the way of things..at least they will have the benifit of my knowledge when choosing on which will give them best value overall for their money..

Greysky:

Thanks for the clarification on the sites and all..I don't have any misconception on Tasco scopes..I know with any product you can always get the "exception to the rule" and have one that has never failed..but over the course of my life..I've seen more cheap quality scopes fail..than higher quaility ones fail..plain and simple.Same for a number of lower quality tools as compaired to the better built ones....
It sounds like you got it set up pretty nice for your style hunting and preferences..Good Luck with it my friend.. :toast:

Mac

Greysky · « **Reply #44 on:** March 30, 2006, 08:50:49 AM »

Quote from: MSP Ret

Greysky, could you do me a favor please, if possible please advise me what brand and model # of see through mounts were mounted on your Handi? Also what guns did the package they came in say they would fit? Are both rings mounted on the chamber area or on the barrel or one on the chamber and the front one on the barrel? Could you post a picture of your set up please, they say one pictire is worth a thousand words and besides the info on the see through rings/mounts the picture would help to see exactly where they were mounted. I have already expressed my feelings about see through mounts, I think they work and work well for hunting in the woods. I am interested in putting a set of see through mounts on at least one of my Handis. Thanks and don't let those who disagree with you get you down, they don't have to use the see through mounts if they don't want to. I agree this type of scope mount may not be real classic looking or the one of the better looking mounts around but mine have worked and worked well for years!!!....<><.... :grin:

The 1" see-through rings are made by Weaver specifically for Browning BAR and BLR rifles. The Model number is: 49720

The gunsmith had to drill three holes on the chamber section of the barrel to accommodate the rings. He also had to shim the front ring before mounting and bore sighting the scope.

I'm sorry I won't be able to post a pic for awhile. I don't have a digital camera. But I will be able to post one at a later date.

Everyone has a right to disagree. This is not what disturbs me. I never intended for this topic to create the unfriendly contention it has due to a few individuals who would prevent others from making their own decisions about scopes, scope rings, and probably everything else they don't agree with, if they could... It must be a macho thing. :roll:

quickdtoo · « **Reply #45 on:** March 30, 2006, 08:58:11 AM »

Here's the ring mount...

http://www.weaver-mounts.com/rings1.asp?qpg=seethru.html

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=366304

bluebayou · « **Reply #46 on:** March 30, 2006, 10:11:52 AM »

Quick, I saw the picture of the WTC18 with medium rings. I never would have thought that it would fit with out really high rings. I didn't really think about the last time that I mounted a Handi scope and how the ocular was the problem more than anything. Another good point from the learned ones. I guess that the length of the Simmons lets it clear the hammer.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #47 on:** March 30, 2006, 11:17:03 AM »

It definitely needs a hammer extension or hammer modification, it is real close and wouldn't work without help of some kind. :wink:

Tim

jbtazgrabber · « **Reply #48 on:** March 30, 2006, 12:40:15 PM »

If the guys spending mega bucks for new barrels, rebored barrels, and high dollar after market barrels, you would think they would buy the older model internals for an H&R and get the hammer with enough clearance between the scope and the top of hammer to where they do not need a hammer spur and/or high mounts. Using the older model internals you do not have to have 1/4 inch high base or medium or high mounts............JB

quickdtoo · « **Reply #49 on:** March 30, 2006, 12:50:51 PM »

Quote from: jbtazgrabber

If the guys spending mega bucks for new barrels, rebored barrels, and high dollar after market barrels, you would think they would buy the older model internals for an H&R and get the hammer with enough clearance between the scope and the top of hammer to where they do not need a hammer spur and/or high mounts. Using the older model internals you do not have to have 1/4 inch high base or medium or high mounts............JB

Just where are these guys supposed to buy the old style hammer?? :roll: Numrich list them, but doesn't carry them, I tried to order em!! :? Besides, modifying the hammer doesn't cost anything and is easy..... even for an old guy!!

Tim

http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=86991

nomosendero · « **Reply #50 on:** March 30, 2006, 01:05:27 PM »

Greysky
Of course we all have the right to disagree, I did not know that was questioned. I don't see how a person could keep someone from buying something by discussing the matter on GB. Besides, you had allready bought your set-up. If someone wants to go buy a see-through, it will have no effect on me that I am aware of.

However, it is good that we can discuss these items, it allows those with different views to state their reasons if they have any & the novice shooter can make an informed choice, hopefully they can have some
solid information & not just people saying it works for me. Shooters can
make the wrong choices & still harvest game, but occassional lost opportunities will result. We should help those who are actually looking for answers take advantage of every opportunity in the field, but ultimately
what they buy is their decision.

jbtazgrabber · « **Reply #51 on:** March 30, 2006, 01:26:06 PM »

the biggest advadage to old model is no transfer bar to break.......the lower scope is a plus and if you can find a metal trigger guard its a plus plus........jb tim ill check my suppler this weekend if you want a older mod. internials.and are sure ill pick up and send them to you 4 what it cost me .......i havent bought any in a while but its cheaper than numrich....jb

MSP Ret · « **Reply #52 on:** March 30, 2006, 01:28:29 PM »

Greysky,Thanks for the model number and the added info about shimming the front mount. I wish they made the proper see through mount for a Handi and have thought of them before knowing they work so well in the woods, but now knowing that it is possible and what model to start with I am closer to making it happen. It should make a great rig for woods hunting....<><.... :grin:

bluebayou · « **Reply #53 on:** March 30, 2006, 05:27:30 PM »

I think that this is one of the best topics on the NEF forum that I have seen lately. Good arguments on few different topics actually. Everybody keeping their cool. Personally, I like the fact that everyone had reasoning to back up their choices instead of just saying, "buy Leupold because it's the best" for example.

Hammerspur · « **Reply #54 on:** March 31, 2006, 01:38:23 AM »

Post on Graybeard because it's the BEST!! :-D