9mm - Old data plaguing a great cartridge?

[Questor]

A lot of old writing, and I presume the attitudes of a lot of old timers, indicates that the 9mm is inadequate for defense. That was with full jacketed roundnose bullets.

But what is the reality today now that we have such things as the Hornady XTP and the Glaser-like slugs.

Is the gap between the 9mm and the 45ACP so narrow as to be meaningless or is there still a significant difference?

[Greysky]

I prefer the 9x19mm for controllability, capacity, and  availabilty of relatively inexpensive practice ammo. Using contemporary defense loads it is more than adequate for personal protection.

I do, however, believe that with the right loads the .45 ACP is also more than adequate for personal protection. But I refuse to acknowledge all of the machoistic veneration this cartridge generates among its adherents.

[Savage]

I prefer the 9x19mm for controllability, capacity, and availabilty of relatively inexpensive practice ammo. Using contemporary defense loads it is more than adequate for personal protection.


I am in agreement with the above statement. I would add, the small size of the many platforms available is the strongest virture of the nine.
Savage

[PaulS]

If you look objectively at the ballistics (paper, I know) of the 9mm and compare them with the 38 Spl and 45 ACP you will find that the 9mm is so close to the 38Spl that you will wonder why it has ever been used as a modern self defense weapon.
The FBI tried it and found that it was lacking penetration just like the 38 Spl - went to the 10mm and found it was not easy enough to control so the adopted the 40 SW. The 40 SW has virtually the same (paper) ballistics as the 45 ACP. The 45 ACP was designed to stop a soldier at a dead run in full field gear and the 40SW is virtually identical. They are both great self defense rounds. The only advantage that the 9mm has is high capacity magazines - but when you have a perp with 27 entry wounds and is still shooting at you with his 357 mag I don't think much of the 9mm's being fired into him. The 9mm wasn't good enough for the majority of the law enforcement community and it isn't good enough for me. A 22LR will kill just as dead as the 45ACP but it won't do it as fast, or with the margin of error that the 45ACP will. I don't think that the 45ACP is enough power so I carry a 357 mag but That's just my personal preference. The Law enforcement community thinks the 9mm fell short of their expectations and have noved on to better ammo. The 9mm can do some things better that the 38 Spl but that is mostly due to its FMC bullets that are lightweight and moving a bit faster - but the heavy bullet (145 -147) in the 9mm is no better than the 140 grain 38 Spl+p loads. So, besides magazine capacity what is so much better about the 9mm?

[Paul S]

:grin: Hi Quester, This is far from scientific. Last year we had an old computer cpu that my wife didn't want to throw away or recycle cause it had banking stuff on it. So the boy and I decided it needed shot. From about 20 steps we put over 50 rounds of .9mm into it. Little holes in the front and about 25% of them exited the back side. When we were sure it was good and dead I dumped 8 rounds of .45 acp  into it and blew it into a thousand pieces. We couldnt belive the difference in the impact of the rounds. The .9 was hollow points and the .45 was 230 fmj. With that said I carry my .9 about 85% of the time just cause I like it and it don't pull my pants down so bad.
Paul

[257 roberts]

If you can shoot the 9mm will be fine and if you can't shoot it don't matter. :wink:

[Savage]

All handgun calibers are a compromise, power is compromised for portability. Given a choice of a .45 or a 9mm in a package of the same size and weight, I'll take the .45 everytime. Where the nine shines, is in a really small light package. It's been around for over a hundred years and isn't going anywhere for the next 100. Is it as effective as larger calibers? No, but it has it's niche.
Savage

[Sir Knight]

The .357SIG, .40S&W and .45ACP penetrate about the same and displace about the same. Therefore, their impact on the human body is going to be about the same. The 9mm displace less than the above three mentioned calibers. The 9mm would be my second choice for self defense. Either .357SIG or .40S&W or .45ACP would be my first choice. Doesn't mean that I would feel under armed with a 9mm ... just that I would feel better armed with either a .357SIG or .40S&W or .45ACP.

[williamlayton]

The choice of the 9MM for JMB was because of its European heritage.
The choice of the military using the 9MM was because of its European field of battle deployment and ability for ammunition to be readily deployed.
The reason for the .45 was because it stopped hard charging and chemically enhanced folks.
The .45 is an American caliber used for the purpose of stopping not because of political and logistic reasoning.
If it had not been for the need it would not have been developed and if logistics were not the reason in the european theater it would not have been deployed.
The 9MM has fallen into disfavor, again, with the military and is being displaced, again, with calibers that will penetrate and stop.
I find that the 9MM is easier too shoot, will shoot flat, will have a higher capacity. I also conclude that if you are proficient, high capicity is not necessary. I also do not think the 9MM is that much easier too shoot proficiently over the .45--maybe over the 10MM.
I prefer too shoot the .357SIG over the .40.
Blessings

[rockbilly]

William.  The reason for the military adapting both the 9mm and the 7.62 was to align its self with NATO.  Those are also the caliber of choice for all our NATO "Friends."  The purpose, logistics.  Supply and re-supply are much easier when all are on the same page. :wink:

[Greysky]

The 9MM has fallen into disfavor, again, with the military and is being displaced, again, with calibers that will penetrate and stop.
I find that the 9MM is easier too shoot, will shoot flat, will have a higher capacity. I also conclude that if you are proficient, high capicity is not necessary.

Thanks to one of the "humanitarian" tenets of the Hague Convention, military forces are forced to use 9mm ball ammo, which knowledgable civilians reserve for practice, not personal protection. It never ceases to amaze me that it is perfectly acceptable to splatter an opponent with flaming napalm, blast away their limbs with mines, and disembowel them with jagged shell fragments, but using HP bullets on them is unacceptable.  :roll:

True. Shot placement is a critical factor. But if all I had to defend myself with was a pistol against a swarm of fanatics who were bent on my personal destruction in some ghastly fashion, I would truly appreciate high capacity.  :wink:

[Sir Knight]

William.  The reason for the military adapting both the 9mm and the 7.62 was to align its self with NATO.  Those are also the caliber of choice for all our NATO "Friends."  The purpose, logistics.  Supply and re-supply are much easier when all are on the same page. :wink:

And recognizing the shortcoming of a 9mm FMJ and the fact that our NATO allies will not always be there for us, the requirements for the new military sidearm is that it be a .45ACP.

[williamlayton]

I vote for a bunch of clips [said to get the attention of those that prefer the term "mags"] a .45 Tommy Gun and bunches of clips. :-)  :grin:
Blessings

[marylandeer]

I like the 9mm, I think it's a great self defense round. I have some negative comments about the .40 tearing up guns due to high pressures. I'm not saying the .40 is ineffective but it's too new to have proved itself to me. The .45 on the other hand is a great man stopper but it's just too big for my likeing. I shoot one at the range but I wouldn't want to shoot one in my house. I have a .44 mag with an 8 3/8" barrel if I need more power than the 9mm I'll grab that.
The 9mm has been around for a long time and it has killed A LOT OF BADGUYS. With todays high tech .9mm hollow point bullets in a skilled shooters hands you will be fine.
If I put three or four 115 grain CorBons in a mans chest and he's still shooting at me then it must have been my time to check out .

[slink]

This is quite provable, on animals.  The 100 gr CorBon PowRball is a helluva lot better performer on coyotes, feral dogs, wild hogs, chucks, coons, badgers, nutria, beaver and javalina than .45 fmj miiltary ammo ever thought of being. However, the 160 gr .45 PowRBall is a bit better yet.