.223 range day and question

[Berger]

So I've been having fun with my handi. I tried a bunch of different loads today at 50 yards. Unfortunetly the best I could do with a 3 shot group was 1".
The two loads that shot 1" were
Brass: winchester
Primer: Rem 7 1/2 Benchrest
Bullet: Rem 50g
Powder: 24.5g H335

Brass: Lake City
Primer: Rem 7 1/2 Benchrest
Bullet: Sierra 60g hp
Powder: 24.0g H335

The place where it gets confusing is I tried some loads from last year that were really great...but they seem to get some blowback past the shoulder. I had posted on another forum last year and the reasoning I got was that they were loaded hot enough, so I stopped using them.

Here is a pic of 8 I shot with the "under loaded" ones from last year

The fliers were more my fault.

So I guess the question is how do I get the percision of the slower loads without getting the blow back.

The older loads were "I think"
LC or Win brass
H335 powder
Rem 7 1/2 benchrest primers
and the bulk Win soft nose bullets.

This is one of the times I wished I had a chrono.

Thanks for any help someone can give me

and of course a pic of me with the handi

[quickdtoo]

Dunno if this applies to your situation, but I got a bad bottle of BL-C2. Using data in the Hodgdon 2004 annual, my .22-250 loads were doing the same thing with start to mid loads, velocities were considerably lower than their book data.  I contacted Hodgdon and they didn't admit to any problems, but sent me a new bottle of powder, no questions asked!!

Tim

[scrounger]

If you were getting blowback, that is, black smudges on the neck and shoulders of your brass, your loads were NOT loaded too hot, they were too underpowered to fireform the case. My experience with ball powders is that best accuracy will come with loads that are near max. If your loads are too light, your groups will be inconsistent, great one time, terrible the next. And I don't have a loading manual handy but I seem to remember H335 maximum was 2 or 3 grains higher than 24.5, so you might work up a bit about half a grain at a time to see if your groups get even better. If you want good groups and you're happy with a lower velocity, use an extruded powder. (3031; 4198; H322; 2015; H4227) Using the same bullet you have now, load 12 grains of H4227 (or IMR 4227) for about 2100 FPS (.22 Hornet velocity), my Contender Carbine will one-hole this load. But my load of choice for the .223 is 25 grains of AA2015 and a 55 grain bullet. There are a lot of good loads out there, you just need to find yours.

[Berger]

Dunno if this applies to your situation, but I got a bad bottle of BL-C2. Using data in the Hodgdon 2004 annual, my .22-250 loads were doing the same thing with start to mid loads, velocities were considerably lower than their book data.  I contacted Hodgdon and they didn't admit to any problems, but sent me a new bottle of powder, no questions asked!!

Tim

Thanks I'll check with them and see. For the record the H335 used today is the same 1lb can, so no change in lot number.

If you were getting blowback, that is, black smudges on the neck and shoulders of your brass, your loads were NOT loaded too hot, they were too underpowered to fireform the case. My experience with ball powders is that best accuracy will come with loads that are near max. If your loads are too light, your groups will be inconsistent, great one time, terrible the next. And I don't have a loading manual handy but I seem to remember H335 maximum was 2 or 3 grains higher than 24.5, so you might work up a bit about half a grain at a time to see if your groups get even better. If you want good groups and you're happy with a lower velocity, use an extruded powder. (3031; 4198; H322; 2015; H4227) Using the same bullet you have now, load 12 grains of H4227 (or IMR 4227) for about 2100 FPS (.22 Hornet velocity), my Contender Carbine will one-hole this load. But my load of choice for the .223 is 25 grains of AA2015 and a 55 grain bullet. There are a lot of good loads out there, you just need to find yours.

Ya I was getting blow back..the smudges run about halfway down the case. I'll see if I can run up the load and see if it shoots better at heigher velocities.

Thanks for the suggestions on the other powders I'll give them a shot.

For some reason the lighter load has been really constant.

I'm doing my best to keep better stats so hopefully I can figure out this issue.

Thanks for both of the replies

-Berger

[quickdtoo]

The 2006 Hodgdon Annual shows a start load of 24gr of H335 with the 50gr Speer and 22.5gr of H335 for the 60gr Vmax. The Lee manual shows the same start load for a 50gr jacketed, but no data for a 60gr and H335. The lyman 48th shows 24gr H335 start with the 50gr Blitz and 23.2 H335 for the 60gr Vmax.

Tim

[myarmor]

Berger-Is your barrel a 1-12 or a 1-9 twist?

-Aaron

[Ditchdigger]

The only load my 223 likes is 26.5 grs. of H 335 and a 40 gr.moly Vmax,shot off a bipod,and the forend floated with business cards.I use the Rem.match primers also. If I change anything at all,accuracy go's out the window. Digger

[Berger]

Berger-Is your barrel a 1-12 or a 1-9 twist?

-Aaron

Its a tapered barrel in 1-12.

The only load my 223 likes is 26.5 grs. of H 335 and a 40 gr.moly Vmax,shot off a bipod,and the forend floated with business cards.I use the Rem.match primers also. If I change anything at all,accuracy go's out the window. Digger

Mine hates a bi pod....I can usually put a couple where I want it,but its not consistant. thanks for the suggestions. I'm guessing these 223s are really specific on what they like.

Depending oh the weather next weekend, I'll either bring my reloading stuff and load at the range...or...I'll do .1 gran increment loads

-Berger

[trotterlg]

Leakage at the neck is mostly caused by too slow of a pressure rise in the case.  Light bullets with slow powder are the worst.  Look at a powder burn rate chart and pick the fastest powder that will give a load for the bullet velocity you want, there are several fast powders made for reduced loads, 5744 comes to mind, but just do a little searching and you will be able to solve the problem.  Also, avoid very hot primers, they may blow the bullet a little out of the case before the powder lights off fully which can also cause this.  I expermented a lot with light bullets in 7.62X54R (Nagant) loads.  Ball type powders are also more prone to this problem in my experience. Larry

[cpj]

From the picture, it lools like you are suppporting almost the full length of the forearm. Try putting the rest as close to the hinge as possible, and the smallest bag you can keep it steady with. Mine wont shoot worth a darn if it isnt rested at the hinge.

[sbhooper]

Right on the money, cpj, mine is exactly the same.  It is incredible how touchy these rifles are about where they are supported. It makes no sense to me that this affects them so badly considering how tightly they lock up, but after hundreds of rounds, I have determined that it has to be lightly supported at the hinge and not held too tightly either.  Crazy stuff!

[Berger]

Leakage at the neck is mostly caused by too slow of a pressure rise in the case.  Light bullets with slow powder are the worst.  Look at a powder burn rate chart and pick the fastest powder that will give a load for the bullet velocity you want, there are several fast powders made for reduced loads, 5744 comes to mind, but just do a little searching and you will be able to solve the problem.  Also, avoid very hot primers, they may blow the bullet a little out of the case before the powder lights off fully which can also cause this.  I expermented a lot with light bullets in 7.62X54R (Nagant) loads.  Ball type powders are also more prone to this problem in my experience. Larry

Looks like I have a bunch of different powders I can try...hopefully next month when I can get down to Cabela's to buy some

Both good points cpj and sbhooper. I try to consistantly keep the rest near the reciever but I'm sure I don't always get it right.

I was thinking today that I use to neck size(when I first developed the load) and now I'm full sizing. Does neck sizing affect how possible a blowback can be? I'm thinking of neck sizing a couple this weekend and see what happens

[the Black Spot]

should get better accuracy if you just neck size. a good standard load for a .222 or .223 is 22 gr. of 4198.

[Dean van Praotl]

I've had a number of cases come out, after firing, with apparently no stretching at all.  One theory I have, is that the long freebore in my rifle is allowing gases to migrate around the case mouth and down the neck to the shoulder, BEFORE the bullet hits the lands.  Does that make any sense?  I'm considering getting a Lee Factory Crimp die to see if it will change this.

I've heard a good case made for NOT neck sizing cases in break action rifles:  essentially, the entire action flexes slightly when it is fired, which allows the cases to grow slightly with each shot, even when neck sized.  Eventually this can lead to problems getting the thing to lock up.

Anyway, I'm using a full length die, backed off so it only bumps the shoulder back a couple of thousandths.

[Berger]

Thank again everyone. I'm going to do some reloading tonight and hopefully bring to gear to the range as well.


So hopefully I'll have an update tomorrow evening or sunday

-Berger

[safetysheriff]

i suggest:  you rest the rifle on something that is relatively slippery:  rolled-up denim or a cotton towel.    do not shoot a firearm off of suede or leather that has enough friction in it to affect the way the weapon recoils.   if a rifle or shotgun forearm gets a lot of friction on it from the front rest it will adversely affect the recoil of the rifle....introducing a 'variable' effect from one shot to the next.    i hate when that happens!

remove your sling swivel studs -- both of 'em....

hold the butt tightly to your shoulder with your left arm, gently pulling the trigger without squeezing down on the pistol-grip area of the stock.  

bulk Winchester and Remington bullets, such as i used to buy from Midway USA, oftentimes have bullets from different lots packed into one container.    they do not shoot to the same point of aim.......  makes you wonder why they can't properly put together a bulk pack made up of just one lot of bullet production!   you can lay them down on a flat surface next to each other and see that the crimping grooves are not in the same place on the different bullets.   what on earth are people thinking when they assemble 'bulk' packs like that?  

hope this helps,

ss'

[Berger]

Got out today. I switched over to varget for powder and I think I found some winning loads. I really worked on my breathing today and it paid off.

3-shot group


5-shot group


-Berger

[nomosendero]

Look's like things are coming together for you with the 40 gr. bullets, very
good. I have heard of a few 1-12 twist barrels that shot the 60 grain, but
alot more that don't.
Feel's good when things start coming together, doesn't it!!  

[Berger]

Yes ver gratifying to have my efforts pay off.

Maybe now I can start looking at getting another rifle to work on

-Berger