M83 44 Magnum 300 XTP Confusion

[rimfire]

I am so confused.  I have read many times that the 300 XTP seated to the bottom cannelure was too long for the M83 44 Mag cyclinder and was only okay for Redhawks and other long cyclindered guns.  Just for kicks when loading some up tonight I dropped one in the cyclinder seated long and it fit.  I quickly loaded 5 and dropped them and and they went in and out fine.

What am I missing here.  I went back and gave them all a very tight crimp with the Lee Factory Crimp Die to try and avoid bullet creep during firing and want to try them tomorrow.  The crimp from this die sure is different looking the way it flattens the case into the bullet as far down as you want to take it.

Comments?  Does this surprise anyone else that the rounds fit?  I know seating them long can reduce pressures and allow you to get a little more velocity safely, although I am not sure I will play too much in this arena.

[MS Hitman]

No, I'm not surprised the cartridges fit your cylinder.  This is why reloaders are constantly experimenting with various components.  Just work within the confines of publihed loading data and check your loads over a chronograph to make sure you are not overdriving the bullet.

[rimfire]

I loaded a cyclinder full of 300 XTP rounds [21.5Gr H110 and CCI 350 primer] and shot four times.  Took the unfired round out and the bullet had jumped forward about 1/16".  

Guys and gals...I crimped the heck out of these rounds with a Lee Factory Crimp Die.  The case was compressed into the cannelure from top to bottom and it still was not enough.  Any suggestions?

The loads shot very accurately and I want to keep this load if I can, but I don't want the bullets jumping even the slightest bit if I can help it.

[Graybeard]

Toss those junk Lee dies. See my full reply to your separate post on the subject.

[MS Hitman]

If you want to keep your bullets from jumping; neck tension, not crimp is the key.  Take the expander plug from a set of .44 Mag dies and use this to bell the case mouths of your .454 cases.  Then you may load your .454 cartridges.  Yes, you will see the bullet buldge the case wall and will even see the bands on a cast bullet.

[rimfire]

This is a 44 Magnum...maybe I could try a 41 magnum expander die to flare it?

[Questor]

No, rimfire. You should take those Lee dies out and dump them in the garbage. Then replace them with real dies and your problem will go away.  There are way too many people reloading that cartridge and bullet combination successfully to suggest anything other than your equipment as being the root of the problem.  A set of RCBS dies is under $40. Do you really want to continue this misery for lack of such a small expenditure?

[rimfire]

Note I am using RCBS carbide dies...just trying to add more crimp with the LEE Factory Crimp Die and it still is not enough.

[Bob Baker]

I keep trying to leave messages but get bumped before I can post the message.  I think my internet service is having problems.

Rimfire, most jacketed bullets have enough radius on them to allow them to be seated without flaring.  Try it just to see if it helps the bullet pull issue.  If the nose of your flaring tool is too big you can lap it down easy enough.

[Questor]

I used a Lee crimp die for a while and had a vexing problem that required me to send the gun back to the maker. It cost about $75 for me to ship it, 350 rounds paid for by the maker, and about $55 paid for by the maker to ship it back to me.  The problem was the ammo I was making with that die. I changed one, and only one thing: I replaced the Lee crimp die with a Dillon crimp die and the problem went away. The Lee die cost a few bucks, but look what it cost in time, money and aggravation.

[jphendren]

I use the Lee Factory Crimp die for my .454 Casull and have experienced no problems with bullets jumping crimp. Are you adjusting one Full turn on the crimp die, I only use half a turn and still no bullets are jumping to my knowledge. I think next time I'm out I'll shoot three rounds and pull the fourth and look at it, who knows, it could be jumping. :?

Jared

[WL44]

Better late than never.

I came across this post because I'm trying to establish what nose length a Mod 83 in .44 Mag can handle. I'd be pleased for a response on that - i.e. whats the distance from the moth of an empty crimped case to the front of the cylinder.

With regard to jumping crimp.

I like the Redding profile crimp. But I read again last night in an old article by Brian Pearce (and I recall seeing it in Veral Smith's forum) that for lead bullets you need the expander 3-4 though smaller than loaded bullet size to get good enough neck tension.

You may do a search in Veral's forum for "jumping crimp" or something to see what the exact measurement is; I'm going from memory.

I use the Lee FCD for a light taper crimp on pistol bullets. Still, I don't like the idea of swaging a loaded round (particulalrly lead). I saw a very negative report on it - I think at Mountainmolds.com if I recall. It was also along the lines of what bothers me about them.

Wim

[WL44]

Sorry, "though" should be "thou" but I figure you got that.  :wink:

[WL44]

I was worrying about this - particularly what Veral Smith had said so I went back and checked - here's the link:

http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=77362

This is interesting - his view is diametrically opposed to what I read in the old article by Brian Pearce. So, what I had remebered from Veral's forum was not right. Hmmm... my memory is going sooner than I'd hoped! Sorry for any confusion.

Wim

[Steve P]

I use a taper crimp die to seat the bullet.  It evens out the bell and makes sure the bullet is straight.  I then roll crimp into the cannelure after making sure the dies are adjusted so the uncrimped case is level with the top edge of the cannelure.

None of my bullets jump, even with full house 2400 loads.

Steve  

[rimfire]

Note that Lee suggested I actually crimp a little less with the FCD as if you over crimp it will bell the case behind the crimp and reduce tension.  I backed off of my crimp a little...problem solved.  No crimp jumping.  Total velocity variation from lowest to highest 7 fps.  

The only problem now is that the loads I was shooting were so darn havy that my hands hurt so much I may never shoot them again.  WOW!  These loads are well under 454 Caull level pressures, but well over typical 44 mag levels basis the strength of the M83, but I am not cut out for them so I backed off.  Guess there are no 454s in my future.  Gun was fine...I was not.

[Questor]

Glad to see that there's an earthly solution to the problem. You may want to copy this to the hand loading forum because I believe I've seen similar complaints there.

[Boxhead]

I see that all of my expander plugs are turned down to .005"-.006" less than bullet diameter. That combined with a tight crimp from any die, Redding, RCBS, Hornady and, yes, even the Lee FC die, has never caused me any problems.