Questions for the group.

[kyote]

1)why did the military get rid of the 1911 in .45acp?
2)why did the military pick the 9mm?
3)why did the FBI get rid of the .38spl and 9mm??
4)why did the FBI select the .40s&w ?
5)what was the FBIs original choice in a side arm caliber before they selected the 40??

[jeager106]

1)why did the military get rid of the 1911 in .45acp?

The 1911 is a good weapon but a complexe design and pretty much outdated. The U.S. was the only nation that continued to use the .45 a.c.p. ctg.

2)why did the military pick the 9mm?

9mm is and has been a European standard for years.

3)why did the FBI get rid of the .38spl and 9mm??

Because of the Miami massacre which was a failure of tactics, not weaponry.

4)why did the FBI select the .40s&w ?


A soloution to a non existant problem.

5)what was the FBIs original choice in a side arm caliber before they selected the 40??

Various .38 Spl and 9mm handguns.

These are very general answers. The answers can and have been argued in great detail.

[williamlayton]

1) Logistics in Europe during the cold war.
2) Logistics during the cold war in Europe.
3) Kyote's answers are fairly accurate, however; I think they were
    proven to be inadequate over a number of circustances.
4) Only God knows, well, and the salesman.
5) 10MM.
Blessings

[slink]

and their "ability", so they blamed the 9mm Silvertip (instead of blaming their 70+ MISSES of the kill zone, 50+ misses of the guy ENTIRELY.

[Castaway]

William correctly answered question 5, but I take issue that the 1911 is a complex design.  It's very simple and that's one reason for its success for the past 95 years.  As far as why the military went to the 9mm, it was to simlify logistics with other NATO countries.  We were the only ones that didn't use the 9mm and thinking was that a pistol was not of such significance to  quibble about.  We all know this is something that has come back to the forefront now that we aren't facing the Soviet hordes pouring through the Fulda Gap but doing some close-quarters combat where a 45 cartridge is still king.  There is also a rumor that by giving Beretta the contract, we could trade off a favor and position some sophisticated weapons systems in Italy.  The FBI did extensive tests following the Miami shootout and determined that certain performance criteria need be met for a pistol round.  The 10mm was developed, but the pistols they purchased had some major mechanical problems.  Them Smith realized they could duplicate the requested 10 mm performance with a smaller round, package it in a 9mm frame and increase firepower over a 10mm sized pistol.

[Dusty Miller]

YAAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWWWNNNNN :grin:

[Questor]

Guys, I think it's a rhetorical question to expose some circularity. Here are my answers:

1)why did the military get rid of the 1911 in .45acp?
  Adequate power, but wanted smaller ammo.
2)why did the military pick the 9mm?
  Smaller ammo, easier to shoot.
3)why did the FBI get rid of the .38spl and 9mm??
  Inadequate stopping and killing power.
4)why did the FBI select the .40s&w ?
  Needed more stopping and killing power.
5)what was the FBIs original choice in a side arm caliber before they selected the 40??
  45ACP.

So in the end the FBI got smaller ammo that works in smaller guns, with kaboom comparable to a 45.

[jeager106]

Questor:
Please gimme a break here will ya?
The .40 was spawned by the Miami Massacre.
Platt and Maddox took out a 'hit' squad of FBI agents.
The FBI were armed with 9mm autos and .38 revolvers and ONE 12 ga. 870 pump.
Where is the .45 you say they were issued?
Bad 'facts' pal.
The FBI could not afford to even suspect that the 'hit squad failed to engage the dangerous piar of robbers with extremely poor tactics.
The FBI 'mystique' was on the line. :oops:  :oops:  :oops:  :oops:
The FBI failed and that was an embarassment the agency could not afford.
After all, suspects are supposed to wilt and pee-pee in thier shorts at the sight of the BI.
The FBI found fault with the 9mm as a stopping round even though other agents used the .38 spl and one used a 12 gauge.
Incidently the 1st hit on Maddox was from agent Dove who hit the perp dead in the K-5 with a fatal shot.
It was a fatal shot but did not incapacitate the gobblin and it cost Dove his life.
The FBI set out to find, invent a new round that would drop bad guys at the sight of the new FBI boolit. :eek:
Ergo the .40.
POLITICS son.
I suggest you read up on the MM debacle before posting nonesense.
Thanks.

[slink]

The first hit on Matix was a lucky hit to the head, with a .38 snub, and had no effect on Dove's death, because Platt killed him. Matix fired one shot only, hit nobody and foolishly had nothing more than #6 birdshot in his 12 ga.

Matix was knocked out by the head hit, for several minutes, but later regained his senses enough to stumble over to the Fed's car that Platt was trying to flee in.  They were both bled out and unarmed when Mirules stumbled up and finished them off.

[jeager106]

slink:
your right. I reversed Platt and Matix.
They were both about dead when Mirules gave them the 'parting shots'.
Actually Platt shot all the agents.
Lesson?
Don't take a handgun to a rifle fight!

[williamlayton]

I have been wondering about this and the N Hollywood robbery.
It is pretty easy to armchair each one, and necessary, though the boys had to deal with the situation as it faced them, with what they brought to the table.
Each reacts to the situation before them differently. Sometimes training and tactics are better used, Hollywood IMO, but often the situation is so quickly thrust on one that the first reactions determine the outcome, without benefit of time to think.
Training goes a long, long way, that said, mind-set and disposition at the actual moment are factors which cannot be pre-determined, or, what we will actually do is different from episode to episode.
It is always good to have enough firepower at the beginning because both episodes showed that there is precious little time to deploy different armament.
The choices of weapons in both situations proved that being undergunned is a bad decision and I have never seen a situation where the winner said I wish I had used a lesser caliber.
Blessings

[jeager106]

williamlayton:
Good points. Sadly the FBI had all the weapons they would have needed available to them prior to the shoot out.
They simply didn't think they needed them.
Here is where the real culprit comes into play.
The so called FBI mystique. The agents were expecting the gobblins to wild, pee-pee in thier undies and surrender at the sight of 6 FBI agenst.
Unfortuantely no one told Matix that was what he was supposed to do.
The rest is history.
Remember. One of the 1st shots to hit Matix was a fatal shot but not an instantainioulsy incapacitating shot.
Matix would have bled out from that hit to the K-5 from Agent Doves 9mm.
It would have made no difference if Dove used a 9mm, .38 spl, .45 a.cp or the .40 that didn't exist them.
Would a .357 made a difference? maybe, we will never know.
Certainly a much more powerful weapon, usch as a .308 150 grain soft point could have made some difference but no in the run of the mill pistol calibers.
At any rate it's all speculation now.
Teh Miami debacle was one reason I dumped the M-92 9mm and went to the Smith 45-06 in .45 a.c.p. and the 185 grain P+ Remington ammo.
This caliber/gun/ammo was about as good as a handgun gets in my opinion, for general use on duty against targets that shoot back.
I also favor the .357 125 grain Federal and Remington loads.
If one knows he is going in harms way a machine gun might be a better choice!
The FBI knew they were going against killers armed to the teeth with an assault rifle and still chose to bring handguns to a rifle fight!
Duh!
Tactics, tactics, tactics.
Can I say that again? TACTICS!
The FBI relied on superior numbers and the FBI mystique to equal fire power and more importantly the willingness of the gobblins to USE the fire power.
Interestly the agent with the only deployed 870 got shot and could not bring the shottie into play for the first critical minutes and when he did he fired at both gobblins who were in a car behind and ordinary windshield.
The 00 buckshot BOUNCED OFF.
A fact we cops learned long ago.
The shottie with buck is useless against most nearly any cover.
Bloody lessons what?

[papajohn428]

The FBI in the MM had plenty of firepower, but horrid tactics.  All had vests but none were wearing them.  At least two agents lost their guns in the initial crash, Ben Grogan lost his glasses, and Platt completely outmaneuvered them.  But yes, the Feds needed a scapegoat, they they blamed the ammo.  And then spent MILLIONS to re-hash ballistic questions that had been resolved fifty years before.

BTW, now that the military is going BACK to the 45ACP, maybe the days of cheap surplus ammo aren't over after all!  

But (here comes the mantra again) Shot Placement Matters Most!

A center hit with a 32ACP beats a bicep shot with a 454!

Papajohn

[rockbilly]

:roll: Why did the military get rid of the .45?

Same basis reason they got rid of the 30-06........to align itself with NATO.  The 9mm and .308 were adapted as the standard NATO round (s).  The USA being a part of NATO jumped on the wagon.  The intent of a standard round was to simplfy logistics and make ammo from any NATO country usable by all.

[papajohn428]

"Ammo Compatibility" was one reason my PD went with the 38 for several years.  We carried 357's, the PD next to our carried 38's.  So we carried 38's, in case there was a firefight and THEY needed some of OUR ammo.  Yeah, right, like we were gonna give it to them if WE were getting shot at!  Police Administrators are some of the most deluded people on the planet.  But it made sense to them in a what-if situation.  Kinda like the U.S. and NATO.  Little more than wishful thinking!  

Papajohn

[Castaway]

For the record, the US "developed" the 7.62x51 cartridge, then NATO followed suit.

[kyote]

1)why did the military get rid of the 1911 in .45acp?

these are my thoughts and what I have heard from others in the know.and had something to do with it up close or remotely.
I ran a federal shooting range for 8 plus years.
on occasion I would have 200 plus military police come to the range and shoot the running man.they would do a forced march through the jungle.show up at the range and one at a time go through the running man course.their commander (a colonel in the MPs)was there for the duration every time his troops were there.His pistol (a 1911 .45acp)was the ONLY pistol that would shoot a full magazine of ammo with out some type of malfunction.most 1911 would only get one shot off then jam.we talked about this.col.and I..he was not happy(that is putting it mildly)and was going to take this problem all the way to the top.and have it corrected.(I beleive it all started there at the shooting range).
to my understanding.the selection of the Berreta and the 9mm were logistical and political.all the major 1911 folks got together and made soloicited bids and unsolicited bids to revamp the 1911,springfied,wilson ect.the 1911 was doomed and the .45 round when the Gens went to congress and asked for a new pistol and told them how unreliabale the 1911 had gotten to be.I am sure there is more info out there on this.and I know I have heard more.just that I can not seem to remeber everything

[kyote]

2)why did the military pick the 9mm?
Put before the higher ups..women could not shoot the .45acp 1911,they wanted to get in line with nato.wish I knew more about the selection.and the big reason was the side arms that were in inventory were not working.

[kyote]

3)why did the FBI get rid of the .38spl and 9mm??
the biggest reason was the miami incident.where several agents were killed.the firearms used against the bad guys failed to stop the bad guys.after that incident the FBI went looking for a better mouse trap.

[kyote]

4)why did the FBI select the .40s&w ?

when S&W got wind of the test and found out that the FBI wanted a 10mm but down loaded from the origanal loading of the 10mm.they had the techs come up with what is now the .40S&W.when they showed the FBI.it seemed no futher testing was done with it.which turned out to be a mistake.as S&W changed some internal diamensions to the case.and later after adoption it was found to be lacking in penatration test that the 10mm easily passed in it's down loaded configuration.but met all other criteria of the testing.that cartridge hit the LE market like Katrina hit new orleans.

[kyote]

5)what was the FBIs original choice in a side arm caliber before they selected the 40??

A couple of you knew what was picked..When the experts went to the FBI director and told him they wanted a new cartridge for the agency.and that testing had been done.and they had come up with something.the director asked what have you come up with?They told him the .45acp.he said you better come up with something else.as the congress and senate just said the .45acp was no good.and have authorized the military to discontinue its use and get another sidearm and cartridge.they told him they had.the second choice was the 10mm.well of course when S&W got ahold of the info and found that they wanted a down loaded version of the origanal.the rest is history so to speak.But,The hrt and swat team are issued springfield 1911s in .45acp. go figure.and the MP 5s are in 10mm.go figure.but all the agents are issued .40 S&Ws..

[kyote]

here is the link to the report on the miami shooting with the bank robbers.

lot of reading..

http://foia.fbi.gov/foiaindex/shooting.htm

[kyote]

adoption of the 9mm..

http://www.defensereview.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=378