Author Topic: China 'selling prisoners' organs'  (Read 1125 times)

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Offline ms

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China 'selling prisoners' organs'
« on: April 20, 2006, 08:03:13 AM »
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China 'selling prisoners' organs'  
By Jill McGivering
BBC News  


 
Chinese officials have denied the allegations
Top British transplant surgeons have accused China of harvesting the organs of thousands of executed prisoners every year to sell for transplants.
In a statement, the British Transplantation Society condemned the practice as unacceptable and a breach of human rights.

The move comes less than a week after Chinese officials publicly denied the practice took place.

In March, China said it would ban the sale of human organs from July.

'Selection'

The British Transplantation Society says an accumulating weight of evidence suggests the organs of thousands of executed prisoners in China are being removed for transplants without consent.

Professor Stephen Wigmore, who chairs the society's ethics committee, told the BBC that the speed of matching donors and patients, sometimes as little as a week, implied prisoners were being selected before execution.

Chinese officials deny the allegations.

Just last week a Chinese health official said publicly that organs from executed prisoners were sometimes used, but only with prior permission and in a very few cases.

But widespread allegations have persisted for several years - including from international human rights groups.

Transplant tourism

Professor Wigmore said: "The weight of evidence has accumulated to a point over the last few months where it's really incontrovertible in our opinion.

"We feel that it's the right time to take a stance against this practice."

The emergence of transplant tourism has made the sale of health organs even more lucrative.

Patients increasingly come from Western countries, including the UK, as well as Japan and South Korea.

Professor Wigmore described this as quite widespread and growing. He and his colleagues, he said, had all seen cases of British patients who had considered going to China for transplants. He really hoped, he added, that people would think very hard about whether they should.

Secrecy surrounding executions in China has always made it difficult to gather facts.

The Chinese authorities recently announced steps to tighten regulations. From July, selling organs will be illegal and all donors must give written permission.

But the practice is lucrative and critics say much will depend on how well those rules are implemented.







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Offline Mikey

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China 'selling prisoners' organs'
« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2006, 02:50:42 AM »
ms:  this is not a new practice.  The Chinese have been doing this since  organ transplants were determined to be a viable means to extend the lives of people who would not normally survive illness or accident.  

Yes, the Brits take offense as they are liberal enough to feel that everyone should have some say in the matter but it should be obvious the Chinese don't feel the same way, thankfully.  And let's not forget that the American organ transplant industry - yep, it's an industry alright with notable profitmaking by the hospitals performing the transplants - was the first to rail against this practice (because, I feel, they didn't have any control over who would get the organs, the costs of the procedures or, most likely, because there would be more organs available).

But you have to understand that here in the US, where organs should be widely available, they aren't for a number of reasons.  First of all, some transplants have a very high failure rate, most notably organs from donors of African American ancestry fail at a high rate when transplanted to whites and from what I understand, vice versa.  In addition there are a number of cultural prohibitions with certain religions and minority groups - the Jewish do not allow their organs to be harvested and transplanted, same with the American Indian and many middle eastern groups.  So basically that leaves white Catholics and Protestants transplanting to their own, the rest not even considering it and transplantable organs in short supply.  The shortage is horrendous with many, many people dying while suffering (and please note that I mean 'suffering') on a waiting list.  This happened to my late wife.  

Six years ago there was an article in the local paper about the Chinese transplant program with a response by the head of the organ transplant program at the Columbia-Presbyterian Hospital in NYC (which was ranked 29 of 30 in a study on American transplant facilities).  I responded to that article but my response was never printed because the hospital was looking out for its own financial interests and had little or no concern for those in need of transplant, and I said so.  

Just remember that in America, supply is based on demand and if the supply is short the demand is always high, especially in life an death situations, and that is just fine for hospitals who have staff that are still famous for saying - 'the procedure was a success but the patient failed', and you still owe us $250,000 for the transplant procedure.  

Actually, I feel the best thing that could possibly happen for the American transplant needy is to have cheap airfare and hospitalization in China for transplants.  Competition always seems to make the supply more available and drive down the monopolized costs of obtaining what is in demand.  It would also probably do a world of good for relations between our two countries.  JMHO.  Mikey.

Offline dukkillr

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China 'selling prisoners' organs'
« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2006, 10:09:51 AM »
The best thing for american transplant patients would be for everyone to sign their donor card.  I see everyone who lets thier organs rot as lazy and/or selfish.

Offline Haywire Haywood

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China 'selling prisoners' organs'
« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2006, 11:25:54 PM »
Quote from: dukkillr
The best thing for american transplant patients would be for everyone to sign their donor card.  I see everyone who lets thier organs rot as lazy and/or selfish.


Ain't that the truth.. mine's signed.... Yank everything useful out and burn what's left.  I won't need it anymore.

Ian
Kids that Hunt, Fish and Trap
Dont Steal, Deal, and Murder


usually...

Offline FWiedner

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« Reply #4 on: April 23, 2006, 06:48:58 AM »
Why should I give permission for my organs to be parted out to people that I don't know or give a damn about?

Giving your junk away won't get your family any discounts on funeral expenses, won't make the house payment, and won't put food on the table.

You dontate the stuff and "medical professionals" and lawyers make hundreds of thousands of dollars from the actual meat of your life while you and your family get a bill for the time that your dyin' ass will spend in a hospital bed.

If you want to give someone permission to maim and dismember your dead child so that they can sell those body parts to the highest bidder, go for it.

I don't think that I'll buy into that scam.

 :?
They may talk of a "New Order" in the  world, but what they have in mind is only a revival of the oldest and worst tyranny.   No liberty, no religion, no hope.   It is an unholy alliance of power and pelf to dominate and to enslave the human race.

Offline Haywire Haywood

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China 'selling prisoners' organs'
« Reply #5 on: April 23, 2006, 07:36:51 AM »
I think that they should allow the sale of organs.  They're mine, I (or my family upon my death) should be able to sell them if I (or they) wish.  I think that the sale of organs could help the families of someone who has all those medical bills piling up.

Ian
Kids that Hunt, Fish and Trap
Dont Steal, Deal, and Murder


usually...

Offline HipShot

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China 'selling prisoners' organs'
« Reply #6 on: April 23, 2006, 08:13:59 AM »
Quote from: dukkillr
The best thing for american transplant patients would be for everyone to sign their donor card.  I see everyone who lets thier organs rot as lazy and/or selfish.


So we can just throw out the first amendment?

You may be done with the constitution, but I'm not.

Offline dukkillr

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China 'selling prisoners' organs'
« Reply #7 on: April 23, 2006, 09:48:33 AM »
I'm unsure what part of the 1st you're refering to.  I didn't state that the government should force you to give them up.

The, "they're my guts and I'm letting them rot" people should be fortunate enough to watch their child die of congestive heart failure waiting on the list.  I do what I would want others to do, and if I or my family would find themselves on that list I would hope others would chose to help rather than waste.

Of course I guess I need to disclaim that I'm not advocating any type of first amendment violation, in any way.  Anyone who can find my constitutional violation will get a free congrats from someone who's spent his adult life studying law.

Offline HipShot

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China 'selling prisoners' organs'
« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2006, 09:58:47 AM »
Quote from: dukkillr
I'm unsure what part of the 1st you're refering to.  I didn't state that the government should force you to give them up.

The, "they're my guts and I'm letting them rot" people should be fortunate enough to watch their child die of congestive heart failure waiting on the list.  I do what I would want others to do, and if I or my family would find themselves on that list I would hope others would chose to help rather than waste.

Of course I guess I need to disclaim that I'm not advocating any type of first amendment violation, in any way.  Anyone who can find my constitutional violation will get a free congrats from someone who's spent his adult life studying law.


Freedom of religion.

Offline Keith L

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China 'selling prisoners' organs'
« Reply #9 on: April 24, 2006, 10:34:18 AM »
Nobodie's rights were violated.  Each of you expressed an opinion.  Nothing binding.
"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy."  Benjamin Franklin

Offline dukkillr

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« Reply #10 on: April 24, 2006, 10:40:18 AM »
Quote
Nobodie's rights were violated. Each of you expressed an opinion. Nothing binding.


You're right, of course.  Had I said, "Everyone should be required to sign..." then what I said would be advocating a stance that would be unconstitutional.  

Since I didn't say that, the offer still stands.  Please explain where I said something unconstitutional.  And, if possible, I'd prefer an exact explanation rather than a vague reference to some part of the constitution that we all know exists.

Offline HipShot

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China 'selling prisoners' organs'
« Reply #11 on: April 24, 2006, 12:07:41 PM »
Quote
The best thing for american transplant patients would be for everyone to sign their donor card. I see everyone who lets thier organs rot as lazy and/or selfish.


There is nothing vague about this. This position does not take into account those whose belief system(s) disallow donation.

The solution that you propose would violate the "freedom of religion" clause of the first amendment.

How you see everyone is irrelevant; the fact that my donor card is signed is also irrelevant. This can not be forced on anyone. It's a purely personal decision. There is not one among us that is owned by the state, (yet).

Since it's obvious that the Chicom government owns their populance body and soul, the organ business is a no brainer for them.

Enjoy your day.

Offline dukkillr

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« Reply #12 on: April 24, 2006, 01:39:59 PM »
perhaps some clarification:

I suggested that the best thing for American patients who need a transplant would be if every American would voluntarily sign their donor card.  That's a fact.  It's not unconstitutional.  It's VOLUNTARY.

You're right, how I feel has nothing to do with the constitutionality of it.  Nor does how you feel.  Nor does your religion, because IT'S VOLUTARY.

I enjoy every day.

Offline kyote

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« Reply #13 on: April 24, 2006, 01:59:20 PM »
I am not to up on this.BUT,A good friend of mine told me what happened to him..his wife was an organ donor here in N.M.,she was in a fatal traffic accident.her organs were harvested.over a year later.he recieved a whoppin Bill from the doctors and the hospital for the harvesting of the organs.he and I were both flabergassed.
my huntin rifle is safe from confiscation only while my battle rifle protects it.

Offline HipShot

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« Reply #14 on: April 24, 2006, 06:09:09 PM »
Quote from: dukkillr
perhaps some clarification:

I suggested that the best thing for American patients who need a transplant would be if every American would voluntarily sign their donor card.  That's a fact.  It's not unconstitutional.  It's VOLUNTARY.

You're right, how I feel has nothing to do with the constitutionality of it.  Nor does how you feel.  Nor does your religion, because IT'S VOLUTARY.

I enjoy every day.


My reaction was based in part on this statement:

Quote
I see everyone who lets thier organs rot as lazy and/or selfish.


I'm sure that you can see how that statement could appear to be myopic, shallow, and certainly socialist; a platform based on that, were it widespread, would be a constitutional threat.

To put this back on track:

A capitalist approach would solve this problem. Financial incentives to the estate based on the sale of organs.

Offline dukkillr

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« Reply #15 on: April 25, 2006, 04:40:15 AM »
A capitalist system would cause outcry from everyone who can't afford organs.  It's that whole "dual standard" argument.  I'm not saying that's right or wrong, only that when a 60 year old blue collar worker can't afford a transplant for his kid while the young lawyer can there would be protests.  That's why the system is designed the way it is.

When you said my opinion didn't matter (and you're right) I assumed you understood that my opinion could not violate the constitution all by itself.  Now if my opinion were codified, you'd have been right.  Apparently that misunderstanding was where the debate started.

Offline HipShot

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« Reply #16 on: April 25, 2006, 12:47:45 PM »
Quote from: dukkillr
A capitalist system would cause outcry from everyone who can't afford organs.  It's that whole "dual standard" argument.  I'm not saying that's right or wrong, only that when a 60 year old blue collar worker can't afford a transplant for his kid while the young lawyer can there would be protests.  That's why the system is designed the way it is.

When you said my opinion didn't matter (and you're right) I assumed you understood that my opinion could not violate the constitution all by itself.  Now if my opinion were codified, you'd have been right.  Apparently that misunderstanding was where the debate started.


Thanks for the thread and the reasoned responses.

I appreciate your position with regard to organ sales. I had initially considered it as an abstract for insurance companies to deal with, but I believe the organ would be allocated in the manner you described above for a different reason. Long term dollars are probably more likely from the attorney, so someone would make a judgement that his life is more valuable. Once that decision making machine is in place, it'd be a short hop to other medical care.

I don't see any solution.