lee R.E.A.L. bullets

[dodd3]

i use a lee real bullet in my pedersoli .54  tryon rifle my gun is an older  modle it  is closer to .53, i can hunt all day with a real  seated and at the end of the day when i check with the ramrod and my wittness mark the real has not moved.  same with my mini's i use a lee.533 mini got lee to  make a sizer die .529 that gives me just enugth clearance to get the bullet down the barrel .that never rides up aswell. speaking from personal experience. i used to check all the time but dont any more.
bernie

[lostid]

i had to laugh here on this subject of real bullets moving in barrel.,, i have been using maxi-ball in my tc hawkins for 35 years,

that's ok, for a 17 month old thread I applaud the use of archives, Theres a ton of info here guy's!

 Yet, it's about R.E.A.L bullets not T/C Maxi-Ball. The jist of this thread was about use of hand cast bullet application in modren replica off the shelf rifles. further research of the archives, of this subject, will show the current viewer many modifications of lubrication, wading and even paper patch use of the real bullet and it's use in-field and at the range.

I "have seen" different kinds projectiles "move" in barrels. And, I have set a few hammer handles in my day, I understand Newtons 3rd. law. But I have never applied that too a firearm.

[Slamfire]

I once loaded a 245 grain Buffalo Ballet without powder. Thinking it had only failed to ignite when I popped several caps, I proceeded to fill the chamber with hat soapy water through the bolster. No wet powder ran out, so I knew I'd dry balled it. Before mounting a ball screw on my ramrod I inverted the barrel and thumped it with a rubber mallet. The ballet came right out of the bore. The bore had been full of soapy water, but now I'm beginning to wonder. I do have a mold for a 250 grain REAL, but have not cast any yet. I suppose I'd better proceed with caution.  :roll:

[lostid]

thanks slamfire,,cast ,,it's a good thing to learn. It can really expand a persons knowledge.
 Buffalo Ballets are knurled, skirted and sold pre-lubed. Hot water may affect that lube. Lee REAL are solid, cast and ringed. T/C Maxi are solid, ringed and factory lubed.

 With just that, there are 3 different projectiles. Same yet different.

All that,,and all you need,,,,,is a Patched Round Ball. :-D

[commanche]

sorry for saying i laughed, that was wrong.only i have been using maxi-balls which i believe are same design as real bullets for 36 years.are you saying you think the real bullets are different than maxi-balls.only thing that could cause that is if real bullets are not tight going in which would mean they are not RIGHT  size. a loose bullet made would do this .  but i never heard of it.                                                                                           we do check our bores each day while hunting to see if our bullets moved. we really bang our guns at times.i fell last year real hard and bullet never moved.

[lostid]

Thank you commanche.

 Yes, the Lee "Rifling,"Engraved, "At, "Loading,,aka.(R.E.A.L.) bullet is a maxi ball. The T/C Maxi bullet and the T/C Maxi-Hunter bullet is a maxi ball.
 The Buffalo Ballett is a minie-ball. The difference is a solid vrs. hollow base,,Maxi/Minie. there are argument's to that, yet that is the basic permis.
 The difference between the REAL and/or the T/C maxi style is the actual outside diameter of the projectile and the size,placement, depth and direction of the lubrication rings.(truth)
 I only have experience with the REAL and T/C maxi and Buffalo Ballet in T/C Hawkins, Lyman Hawkins style and GPR in .50 and .54 cal. I have tried and experimented with many weight types of the above with several applications of different lubrication techniques. And while each have favorable properties in each firearm in givin applications..blaa,,blaa,,

Nothing beats the enjoyment of learning and knowing the versatility and unmatched productivity of the Patched Round Ball. :-D  

[jgalar]

I have on occassion had the ramrod pop up after seating the REALs. With the hammer down on a spent cap and a fresh powder charge the trapped air has been enough to push the REAL back a few inches up the bore. Until the hammer was put on half cock and the old cap removed to allow the trapped air to escape the REAL would act like a piston. If that isn't sliding in the bore I don't know what is!!!!

 My guns shoot the REALs very well so I just check that the bullet hasn't come off the charge.

[JPerryE]

does anyone use the Lee R.E.A.L. bullets I am looking at the 50 cal 250 gr bullet
I want to use the bullet on deer, But i have been told that they are known to slide out of the bore when hunting. Is this true how will it work for deer?

The problem with a conical "slipping" usually only occurs with a clean bore. Here's what I do, works like a charm to hold that first conical in place. You won't need to do it with a fouled bore.

I have a package of cigarette papers in my bag. Cut a strip about 1/4" wide. Run the strip in a U shape down one side, across the bottom and up tha other side of the conical or Minnie.

Now load so that the paper strips are between the barrel and the bullet. One strip is all that's required with most conicals or minnies. If you need to take up more slack, just fold a 1/2" strip in half.

[commanche]

does anyone use the Lee R.E.A.L. bullets I am looking at the 50 cal 250 gr bullet
I want to use the bullet on deer, But i have been told that they are known to slide out of the bore when hunting. Is this true how will it work for deer?

The problem with a conical "slipping" usually only occurs with a clean bore. Here's what I do, works like a charm to hold that first conical in place. You won't need to do it with a fouled bore.

I have a package of cigarette papers in my bag. Cut a strip about 1/4" wide. Run the strip in a U shape down one side, across the bottom and up tha other side of the conical or Minnie.

Now load so that the paper strips are between the barrel and the bullet. One strip is all that's required with most conicals or minnies. If you need to take up more slack, just fold a 1/2" strip in half.

                                                                                                                             i NEVER  had a MAXI-BALL 370 ever,ever move in my bore and i have never heard of anyone having this happen. i even took a rubber mallet to my .50cal tc hawkins and it did not move. i know, we are taking about REAL BULLETS  but are they that much different from a maxi-ball.

[yottey]

I have a few questions how were they cast?Did they use pure lead or wheel weights or something inbetween?Could it be a case of a bad oversize bore?My reason for asking is I was looking at combo molds for 45 and 50 caliber!yottey

[harryo]

I have on occassion had the ramrod pop up after seating the REALs. With the hammer down on a spent cap and a fresh powder charge the trapped air has been enough to push the REAL back a few inches up the bore.

I have seen a patched roundball do the same thing.

[Slamfire]

I have on occassion had the ramrod pop up after seating the REALs. With the hammer down on a spent cap and a fresh powder charge the trapped air has been enough to push the REAL back a few inches up the bore. Until the hammer was put on half cock and the old cap removed to allow the trapped air to escape the REAL would act like a piston. If that isn't sliding in the bore I don't know what is!!!!

 My guns shoot the REALs very well so I just check that the bullet hasn't come off the charge.

I try to remove the spent cap first, for just that reason. Push that smoke outa there.  :wink:

[lostid]

 we are taking about REAL BULLETS  but are they that much different from a maxi-ball.

 Yes. they are,,.  the ring groove pattern and depth, outside diameter of each and the cone shape is just different enough,, too allow each it's own US paten #. That's a fact.
 Each can shoot very well, yet, they cannot be shot from the same gun interchangably(spl?) without minor changes to the charge, or cushon,or lubrication, and maintain the same consistant accuracy as respect too each other.
 The experianced shooter will/can know what to expect, but it is hazard to dis-pell to the novice that the Lee R.E.A.L. and the Thompsen Center Maxi-Ball are the same. :?

[commanche]

 we are taking about REAL BULLETS  but are they that much different from a maxi-ball.

 Yes. they are,,.  the ring groove pattern and depth, outside diameter of each and the cone shape is just different enough,, too allow each it's own US paten #. That's a fact.
 Each can shoot very well, yet, they cannot be shot from the same gun interchangably(spl?) without minor changes to the charge, or cushon,or lubrication, and maintain the same consistant accuracy as respect too each other.
 The experianced shooter will/can know what to expect, but it is hazard to dis-pell to the novice that the Lee R.E.A.L. and the Thompsen Center Maxi-Ball are the same. :?

                                                                                                      i think you should notify the REAL BULLET MANUFACTURE that this is happening. this could cause a very serious injury.i have never heard of it with a  MAXI-BALL 370GR. :eek:

[jh45gun]

This almost reminds me of the arguements on the reloading sites as some think since Lee products are not pricey and a good value for your dollar they are cheap or do not work good. Nothing could be further from the truth. To each their own and I am sure that the TC maxi ball is a great projectile too. I went with the Lee because at 20 bucks for the mould I could afford it over 70 for blocks and handles for a Other brand mould. Now that I have some handles for the Lyman blocks Perhaps I will be looking for moulds at gun shows ect. Both do the job. The bottom line is making the projectile work for you. instead of a published load maybe you may have to go lower to make it work. or maybe higher if your gun can do that safely but I prefer the lower route. IF a 45/70 with 70 grains of black can kill most anything I cannot see why a muzzle loader needs 150 grains like they are trying to shove down our throats today.

[Slamfire]

I managed to cast up a few between snow storms this week. They mike .517, indicating they'd have a pretty good grip in a .500 bore.  

[lostid]

well Commanche, all the dis-claimers are already in place so it's mute to rallie the wagons.
 My simple point is/was that there is a significant difference between the use of R.E.A.L and T/C Maxi in the same firearm.
 I have tried them both in 50 and 54 in three different rifles of each caliber.,,,,,,anyway's,,,could I offer something here for all?
 When someone say's"never seen!",,and another offers that they "have" seen.?? It's a good idea ta think about others experiances. it's like this;

"when ya come to a fork in the road. Pick it up."

All this an that talk of minnie and maxi,?  The patched round ball,,works!? Yet, some folks just have a need ta try an "re-invent the wheel". :-D

[jgalar]

My experience is shooting REALs and patched balls. I have never fired any other conical or sabot. No matter what size the REAL casts out as it will be sized while seating to the smallest diameter of the bore. If you have a tight spot, due to manufacturing tolerances or fouling, because of the nature of the lead bullet it may be undersize while sitting on the charge. Once the bullet is on the charge seat it with good firm pressure to "squish" it into the bore at that spot. The same characteristics of lead that cause the problems can help to solve it.
I personally like the REAL bullets. They are easy to cast, quick and easy to load, and are very accurate in the guns I have tried them in.

[joelvca]

I realize this thread has gone on a while, but I think a couple of points have yet to be raised.

As has been observed, the main problem with lubed conicals sliding around is with the first load in a clean bore when out hunting.  The cigarette paper (neat idea), overshot card, or a paper patch seem to increase friction enough to take care of it, where it is a problem, and in some cases, improve the accuracy of the shot.  I know of folks who use a larger ball for the first shot in a smoothbore - or even the first cartridge for a musket - for similar reasons.  After the first shot, fouling increases the surface friction and reduces bore dimensions enough to take care of the problem except with very undersized projectiles.

In the Late Unpleasantness, the Crimean War, and other similar altercations, conicals were not necessarily loaded bare - they could be still in the cartridge paper, and often the rest of the paper was loaded in over or under them to help hold them in, just like roundballs in smoothbore muskets.

The fit of the conical or ball and patch to the bore is always raised when discussing accuracy but has not come up much here in respect to either safety or accuracy, but it obviously DOES affect both, and probably explains most of the difference in results observed by different shooters.  

In my .50 flint rifle, no conicals work well as-is.  None are particurlarly accurate, and some of them just slide staight down and back out.  It turns out my bore dimensions are .510"x.520".  I'm still working on loads occasionally (I'm mostly a roundball shooter, but I like to explore options), but all flat-base conicals now get a felt wad underneath.  Buffalo Bullets and MaxiHunters need to be paper-patched for any accuracy, at least for the first shot, although subsequent ones may be better just lubed.  My mold throws 250gr REALs in pure lead with band diameters of .508"x.511"x.514" (back to front), so even the front band barely engraves.  They need to be paper-patched over at least the rear two bands, and maybe all three.  I'm starting to play with an Enfield-style cartridge in thin paper, with the REAL bullet reversed and the ungreased felt wad glued in the end of the cartridge under it, with the bullet end dipped in lube, naturally, and maybe a liner/inner cartridge of paper or waxed paper to keep grease out of the powder.  It looks promising, but I haven't been getting to the range enough for everything I want to do.

Joel

[dodd3]

heres some info on the lee .58 440 grn real bullet in a pedersoli  kodiak dubble rifle with a charge of 110 of swiss ff and the two lee real's seated on the powder charge. right hand barrel shot first left hand barrel then checked with the witness mark on the ramrod the left hand real  never moved reload right barrel and shoot it again left hand barrel checked again with the ramrod witness mark real never moved. i might ad that the guy who owns this gun always  drops a charge of 20 grn of powder in each barrel and shoots them of so he starts on  slightly foweld barrel's, saw this test dun sunday so i think it is important to make sure that the real is a nice tight fitt in the bore as it is meant to be, if you have that then i no it wont move.
bernie
 

[Winter Hawk]

Being as I am the one who first mentioned the projectile coming off the powder charge in this thread, I guess I had better get in on it again.  I had read about this in Muzzleloader, and saw it again on the MLML site.  There it had been confirmed by several of the members that they had a conical bullet slip up the barrel.  Notice I did not say REAL, but conical.  I brought it up as a safety concern to watch for as I had read about it in two reliable places.

I believe that if I were using any conical in a hunting situation, I would run the ramrod down the barrel every so often, just to make sure.  If I saw no movement after doing this enough times, I would probably feel confidant that in THIS rifle I could be sure that particular bullet wouldn't move.

I was not saying anything against the REAL bullets.  In my post I mentioned that I got excellent accuracy with them at the range.  I like and use Lee products a lot and can only say good things about them.

As someone once told me, 'nuff said.

-Winter Hawk-