Author Topic: Meplat question? (Read 1679 times)

cattleskinner · « **on:** April 12, 2006, 04:48:48 PM »

Hey all,

I've used jacketed bullets the past two years for handgun hunting, but recently got into casting my own bullets. I have a Lee .41 cal 210gr. swc mold. I haven't used cast bullets hunting before, but have probably shot 300 or more of these bullets I've cast out of wheel weights plinking and love the fact that I can shoot for around $3.00/hundred rounds. My question is, when everyone talks about a wide meplat for a cast bullet to work the best, does it have to have a sharp corner on the edge of the meplat like the LBT molds, or would the slightly rounded corner of the lee bullets work just as well? Also, how fast do you have to push bullets made out of wheel weights in order to get a bit of expansion, just in case the slightly rounded corners won't work as well on cutting a hole? That should be enough questions to start a discussion. Thanks fellas.

~~~Amos

myronman3 · « **Reply #1 on:** April 12, 2006, 05:14:45 PM »

first off, you dont want your bullet to expand. you want it to penatrate. and the nice, clean corners is what you are after. imagine a cookie cutter. one with sharp edges, and one that is dull as hell. you want to cookie cut a 41 caliber hole threw your quarry, one hole in and one hole out. forget what you know about copper bullets, it doesnt apply here.

jeager106 · « **Reply #2 on:** April 12, 2006, 05:23:46 PM »

Also you are unlikely to get any expansion at any handgun velocities with bullets from wheel wieght metal or harder than WW metal alloys.
The flat meplat is what enables a bullet to shed energy in the target medium. In this case game animals.
YOu will still get energy transfer from the lfat on the Lee cast bullet.
I haven't a clue if you would loose any performance from a slightly rounded edge on the meplat.
3 bucks a hundred is darned cheap shooting ain't it?

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #3 on:** April 12, 2006, 10:22:40 PM »

that .41 bullet your using is a good one. Its proven itself on game for me.

myronman3 · « **Reply #4 on:** April 13, 2006, 01:08:47 AM »

one question... where did you get the $3 dollar amount from?
just curious.....

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #5 on:** April 13, 2006, 01:16:43 AM »

A wide meplat is what I use in my big bore handguns. I get great penetration and a lot of energy transfer.

mparks · « **Reply #6 on:** April 13, 2006, 01:44:33 AM »

Is that the .41 Lee TL bullet? I've been casting that one for awhile. Shoots great in my Redhawk and Blackhawk. What kind of load are you using? I'm using 10g of Blue Dot for a plinking load.

cattleskinner · « **Reply #7 on:** April 13, 2006, 12:16:56 PM »

The reason I asked this question is because I used a Speer GoldDot HP last year, and it didn't hardly expand. A touch of one side did very slightly, but it acted very much like a cast bullet, and penetrated about 30inches or so lengthwise through the deer. The GDHP has a gaping hollow point with sharp edges. It got me to thinking on the subject, because the hide had a hole a bit larger than a quarter, and made me realize what you guys brag up cast bullets with a large meplat for. I was wondering if the Lee bullet would have the same effect, or would the hole be a bit smaller because the edges aren't sharp. Yes it is the tumble lube bullet, and use a 1cc dipper of unique(9.2gr) for a plinking load. I got the $3.00 figure from the cost of the powder, and about $1.70/100 primers. I'm using them out of a 6.5" blackhawk. I've noticed that I can't seem to get the bullet to expand after digging them out of dirt, unless they hit something hard like a rock. It's good to hear that they do work well on game though.

~~~Amos

myronman3 · « **Reply #8 on:** April 14, 2006, 01:14:58 AM »

that makes sense about the $3. i just wasnt sure if that is what you were thinking or if that is what the bullets alone cost you.

i get all my lead for free, so once the molds are paid for, my time is the only thing it costs me. boy i do love lead bullets.

swampthing · « **Reply #9 on:** April 14, 2006, 02:24:05 AM »

There is a formula created by Veral Smith called Displacement Velocity or DV. It uses the meplat diameter in inches X velocity divided by 4. A DV above 80-100 is needed for quick kills through the heart lung area with DV's 100-120 being faster killers but not nesecarily needed. Veral states a DV of 130 and over are detrimental and killing speed drops off considerably. Your meplat is probably in the .250"-.280" range and impact velocities around 1200FPS are great for quick lay down harvesting. DV as low as 60 will kill as long as you have a good Heart/Lung hit. His book goes into much more detail about this. Every thing he states about performance I have tried and seen myself.
Me and 2 buddies from work just took 3 200LB Hogs with some 280g LBT's at 1300fps, no problems. Meplats are .340"

S.B. · « **Reply #10 on:** April 18, 2006, 03:20:38 AM »

You didn't mention what velocity was with your reloads? Handloads must be chronographed, to see if enough velocity is there, to properly expand the bullets being used. Did you check the expansion with wet newspapers or other suitable media, before hunting with your load? All bullets are not alike, nor do they respiond to velocity the same.

Larry Gibson · « **Reply #11 on:** April 18, 2006, 06:40:03 AM »

Quote from: cattleskinner

The reason I asked this question is because I used a Speer GoldDot HP last year, and it didn't hardly expand. A touch of one side did very slightly, but it acted very much like a cast bullet, and penetrated about 30inches or so lengthwise through the deer....... I was wondering if the Lee bullet would have the same effect, or would the hole be a bit smaller because the edges aren't sharp..... Yes it is the tumble lube bullet, and use a 1cc dipper of unique(9.2gr) for a plinking load. ..... I'm using them out of a 6.5" blackhawk. It's good to hear that they do work well on game though.

~~~Amos

It would be nice to know the load with that GD bullet? I have pushed them at 1500+ fps out of my 7 1/2" BH .41 mag and expansion was very impressive.

Yesterday I test fired some of the TL410-210s (new 6 cavity mould) out of the BH. With 9 gr of Unique they ran right at 1200 fps. I'd suspect your 9.2 gr load from the Lee dipper should be pushing 1150+ out of your 6 1/2" BH. Have you actually weighed it? My Lee 1cc dipper throws only 8.5 gr of Unique. Yesterday the 8.5 gr of Unique ran an even 1150 fps with a 12 fps SD and 38 fps ES for 12 shots. I was using a pretty soft alloy and that was my best grouping load also - 2" for the 12 shots at 25 yards. I'd think if your dipper is as mine your loads are in the 1100+ fps range.

I haven't shot any game with the 210 Lee bullets but I have with the 210-175 gr and the older 210-195 gr Lee .41 SWCs. The 195 SWC was used out of a 4" S&W at 1250 fps to dispatch a couple deer. Worked very well with complete penetration through heart/lung area.

I've used other hard cast SWCs of 210/220 grs with similar SWC profiles at from 1300 to 1500 fps and they all worked fine. I thoroughly expect the 210 Lee SWC to perform just as well. I'd suggest for hunting you cast them hard, lube them well and switch to Bluedot powder and sneak up on 1400 fps.

Larry Gibson

cattleskinner · « **Reply #12 on:** April 18, 2006, 12:24:39 PM »

I was using 19gr. of 2400 powder for those golddot bullets, and the data said that it should go around 1200-1250fps.(speer's data). It kind of suprised me too to not see expansion with those bullets, as everyone that I dug out of the backstop at the house expanded nicely. I sadly don't have a chronograph here, or know of anyone who does, so I'll have to stick with published data, and start saving my pennies for it. I haven't weighed the unique from the dippers...yet. Probably should tonight if I get the time, more than anything, I was just wondering how the meplat should be in order to be the most effective on game. If these bullets turn out to be good, I may use them, but for now it's just a cheap plinking load for me right now. One way or the other, I got plenty of time before gun season to get a load around.

~~~Amos

mparks · « **Reply #13 on:** April 18, 2006, 02:53:10 PM »

Quote from: Larry Gibson

I've used other hard cast SWCs of 210/220 grs with similar SWC profiles at from 1300 to 1500 fps and they all worked fine. I thoroughly expect the 210 Lee SWC to perform just as well. I'd suggest for hunting you cast them hard, lube them well and switch to Bluedot powder and sneak up on 1400 fps.

Larry Gibson

Since I'm using Blue Dot and the 210gr Lee SWC, what charge will yield about 1400 fps? I'm assuming that is a near-max load.

Larry Gibson · « **Reply #14 on:** April 19, 2006, 04:54:40 AM »

Quote from: mparks

Quote from: Larry Gibson

I've used other hard cast SWCs of 210/220 grs with similar SWC profiles at from 1300 to 1500 fps and they all worked fine. I thoroughly expect the 210 Lee SWC to perform just as well. I'd suggest for hunting you cast them hard, lube them well and switch to Bluedot powder and sneak up on 1400 fps.

Larry Gibson

Since I'm using Blue Dot and the 210gr Lee SWC, what charge will yield about 1400 fps? I'm assuming that is a near-max load.

The TL410-210s were cast of WWs and linotype (50/50 I believe) and weighed 207 gr lubed. These were not of my mould but of a friends. I'm not sure what my mould will throw with a hard alloy. I sized and lubed them in a Lyman 450 with a .410 sizer and Javelina lube. They miced .4103. The max load of Blue dot in my 7 1/2" BH (Bisley) that I use is 14.5 gr of Buedot. It runs 1425 fps out of my BH and should run close to 1400 fps out of cattleskinner's 6 1/2" BH. I have shot these in two other BHs (not chronographed though) and they were fine. I have not shot them in any S&Ws though.

Yes, this is a max load but safe in my revolver and two others. It is also a very accurate load at top end perfomance wise. I advised cattleskinner to sneak up on that load and you also as all guns are different and there is always some variation in lots of powder and bullet hardness.

Larry Gibson

slink · « **Reply #15 on:** April 19, 2006, 05:26:30 PM »

let's say you are typical, and need 2 full seconds to react, make a ccw belt rig draw, and hit a 10" circle at 10 ft. Say I start first, with my hand on my pocket gun. No reaction time, I can draw and miss with a one handed point shot, in .40 second. I can then fire 6 more times, pretty carefully, in fact, with the remaining 1.56 second that I have before you fire your first shot. LOL.

So few guys have an electronic shooting timer, even fewer have a clue about what constitutes real speed shooting, fast draw, etc, that crap like this gets spouted as "wisdom" all the time, when it's easily proven to be dead wrong-inaccurate. Truly fast repeat hits run .16 second, guys. So 1.56 second is time enough for 9 more tries, if I wanted the bulge of a double stack mag in my front pants pocket holster, or wanted to fight a DAO triggerpull. Of course, the stiff DAO of a Keltec P11 would probably slow me down a bit on the repeat hit speed, to about .25 second. Which is one of the reasons I detest DA trigger pulls.

Larry Gibson · « **Reply #16 on:** April 20, 2006, 06:37:32 AM »

Quote from: slink

let's say you are typical, and need 2 full seconds to react, make a ccw belt rig draw, and hit a 10" circle at 10 ft. Say I start first, with my hand on my pocket gun. No reaction time, I can draw and miss with a one handed point shot, in .40 second. I can then fire 6 more times, pretty carefully, in fact, with the remaining 1.56 second that I have before you fire your first shot. LOL.

Not sure what this has to do with this thread. However I used to shoot a lot of IPSC back when real guns, real holsters and real major loads were used. Most practiced shooters could react, draw and hit the A zone with the first shot in under 1 second. That includes reaction time from the old hands shoulder high "surrender" position. I was also a LEO and LEO firearms/survial instructor for years. I wouldn't bet my life on "drawing and miss" with the first shot then shooting carefully while hoping the bad guy was that slow. There is a lot of truth to the addage; "you can miss quick enough to win a gun fight". He who hits first wins, not he who shoots first.

Also you may be watching too much "Gunsmoke" as there are very few face off and "draw yer gun you varmint!" shootouts. Odds are (if you are the good guy) the bad guy will already have his weapon out so it is you who are "reacting and drawing to his already drawn weapon. I'd suggest not missing with that first shot. If you know you are going into a gunfight or against another deadly weapon the fastest draw is to have the gun in your hand.

Larry Gibson

slink · « **Reply #17 on:** April 20, 2006, 06:52:16 AM »

as well as gun, rig, hand start position, size of target. you ever try those matches while guns were going off in your face? The outside distance at which you will fire, in justifiable self defense, is 10 ft. Most often, it will be 6 ft or less (hand over the money" distance), or rape-beating distance, grab you from behind mugging distances are very common, too. The odds are against the attacker having a gun, but the issue of this topic WAS "gunfight", so we'll stick with that.

There's reaction time, and then there's RECOGNITION interval. If you start a concealed draw, when he has no idea that you are armed, the reaction time comes OFF of your draw, and goes ONTO the armed attacker. Also, he must RECOGNIZE that you are drawing a weapon. Naturally, you will try to draw when you see that he is distracted, by your talking to him, if nothing else. A distracted reaction time is .30-.40 second, not the .20-25 second of a "keyed in" trial-run. His recognition interval can easily be the same.

From the pocket holster, starting with hand in a firing grip on the gun, it's no big deal to react, draw, and hit the chest in .60 second, with .20 second of that being the reaction time. If I start first, he has .40 second in which to react, recognize the threat, DECIDE what to do, and fire. That first shot, flying past his ear or gonads, is HIGHLY likely to make him miss. Naturally, one attempts such things only if they think that the guy is going to shoot them anyway. The defender might even have body armor on, ya know.

If he's TOLD you to "hand it over", or "let me see your hands", he EXPECTS to see your hand come out of your pocket, maybe even expects to see SOMETHING in your hand.

When I was using a speed rig, surrender start, and a 1911 in IPSC, to react, draw and hit the chest, reliably, at arm's length, in .60 second was nothing special. this was firing from the retention, one handed position, with the curve of the wrist-forearm joint slammed up into the pectoral muscle. If the target was 10 ft away, add at most another .15 second (going to an eye-level, two handed stance, point shooting. Starting with hands at sides shaves off about .10 second, too.

Larry Gibson · « **Reply #18 on:** April 21, 2006, 07:04:22 AM »

slink

Once again I'll say I don't know why this topic is under this thread(?). However to answer your first question; yes I have, both in LEO and military context. In addition during the course of my private business I have drawn and presented the firearm several times after which the antagonist quickly disengaged and departed. As the officer survival instructor for several LE agencies I also thoroughly read and analized hundreds of official reports, statements and investigations of gunfights involving LEOs and those just involving civilians. When you do that objectively one thing you learn quickly is there are no hard and fast "rules". One thing that happens in one gunfight will happen just the opposite in the next. The analytical approach you take works fine on the IPSC playing field but is lacking in reality "on the street".

What I and most others who have really studied the situation find is that your best course of action for self defense with a handgun is to practice basic techniques that are realistic and practical over and over until they become reflex. Along with developing the reflex (muscle memory) comes the development of "mind set". This is why many of the "martial artists" quit IPSC years ago. IPSC was being run and courses of fire developed that were very unrealistic and forcing one to do things (to win) that are very dangerous in the real world of gunfights. It was the analytical approach of the gamesman that drove most all of the real shootists away from IPSC. I won't even go into the equipment race here.

Again I'm not sure what you are proffering by this discusion on a thread concerning meplats. It appears you are aguing that a pocket holster is the best way to cary for self defense(?). I won't argue against that because I often have a pocket gun and have my hand on it when in certain places. Many times I carry both the pocket gun and the Colt Commander in a CC belt holster. Obviously we do agree on the one aspect that the best draw is to have the gun in hand, that is pretty much the case with the pocket holster draw you describe.

Don't get to analytical before the fact by saying this will happen or that will happen. Sure enough when you think you've got the answer to the question, they change the question. In the context of your discussion that can be very hazardous.

Larry Gibson

S.S. · « **Reply #19 on:** April 21, 2006, 09:11:08 AM »

I see you all are having fun with slink also...
Visit all the other forums on GB and read all of the WISDOM
that oozes out there too. You will be quite entertained

lovedogs · « **Reply #20 on:** April 21, 2006, 11:52:21 AM »

I would assume that in Mr. Smith's formula the velocity means terminal velocity... at the target on impact. Maybe that should be mentioned as some might not think that far ahead and think they could make long shots and still have adequate killing power, which isn't usually the case with slow bullets.

mparks · « **Reply #21 on:** May 02, 2006, 05:56:55 AM »

Good loading data in there Larry. Thanks.

I'm using the Lee 410 TL bullet lubed with LLA in my 6.5" Blackhawk. My alloy is pretty soft, no idea what hardness. I'm shooting as cast w/no sizing. I've had good accuracy and no leading after over 100 rounds with 10gr Blue Dot. I bumped up to 13gr of Blue Dot and the leading is pretty bad throughout the entire barrel. Probably need a harder alloy at that velocity.

Larry Gibson · « **Reply #22 on:** May 02, 2006, 10:23:31 AM »

Quote from: mparks

Good loading data in there Larry. Thanks.

I'm using the Lee 410 TL bullet lubed with LLA in my 6.5" Blackhawk. My alloy is pretty soft, no idea what hardness. I'm shooting as cast w/no sizing. I've had good accuracy and no leading after over 100 rounds with 10gr Blue Dot. I bumped up to 13gr of Blue Dot and the leading is pretty bad throughout the entire barrel. Probably need a harder alloy at that velocity.

I ran a test on the TL210s out of the mould I recently got with the softer alloy and BlueDot. I found that right at 10 gr they were running the same velocity (right at 1200 fps) as the 9 gr load of Unique with the same accuracy. As I went to 11 and 12 gr of BlueDot velocity went up but I began getting considerable leading as you did. I may or may not cast some harder in the future to duplicate the TL210s I first shot. Probably not since I will use a XTP or Rem SP to hunt with. Either the 9 gr of Unique of 10 gr of BlueDot with that softer TL210 is a fine pleasant load to shoot and will suffice for 95% of the game I would shoot with it.

Larry Gibson

mparks · « **Reply #23 on:** May 02, 2006, 03:15:43 PM »

Thanks again Larry. Sounds like you did all the work for me:)

The 10gr Blue Dot load with the 210 TL bullet shoots great in my Blackhawk and Redhawk and the recoil is much lighter than with the 13gr charge. Anywhere near 1000-1200 fps is plenty for my use. I only need enough punch for whitetails at under 50 yards. I hope to get good enough shooting from field positions to extend my range to 75-100 yards but until then I don't need a high velocity load. Last year I went with 13.5gr Blue Dot with a 210 Hornady XTP but I'm into the casting big time now.