Beretta and HK

[Zachary]

I own a Beretta 92 Brigadeer Stainless in 9mm and an HK stainless (actually two tone) in .40 S&W.

I bought these guns mostly just for fun and target shooting, with, I guess, the possibility of having it handy for security in my home, but then again I live in a very, very safe neighborhood.

These guns are brand new.  However, I found their accuracy to be appauling.  Keep in mind that my hunting rifles shoot sub MOA at 100 yards, and my hunting handguns - 454 Casull and 480 Ruger, although not stellar, produce about 1 1/2" groups at 50 yards.

However, the Beretta and HK shoot about 5 inch groups at only 25 yards! (especially when the barrel gets hot).

The range officer at the shooting range told me that these guns were not made for match competition, but rather for "combat."  Yea, they shoot 1 inch groups at 7 yards (the first 4 shots) but I still don't find that to be acceptable.

Is this type of "accuracy" (or lack thereof) really standard for these types of guns.  The officer said that these guns are the best made.  Heck, they cost me A LOT of money, and I have only put only one box of ammo through them, but I don't know if this accuracy is normal.  Is it?

[DEPUTY]

remember what you are talking about a defensive handgun! cqb! why would you want to engage in a gun fight at 50yds with a hangun? thays not what there for! now if you want 1 inch groups at 50yds geta les baer or wilson!  spend the 1700 dollars plus to get that which you will never use!  i have hanguns that willshot taks at 5oys if i do my part righ tat the range from a rest remeber those 1 inch claims those are from a ransom rest not a human take out all human error and they will shoot great from a rest all of them!  it is designed as a personal protection gun! period! 25yds and under to be real i have shot many a match at 100yds with my glock and sig and done well ! but it isnt enough for life saving!  i'am not really sure what it is your looking for but if you want a true long rang shooter and super accurate look at the specialty guns!  in the mean time get more ammo and practice till you get better

[KING]

I concure with DEPUTY..A NUMBER OF YEARS AGO I WAS TESTING HANDGUNS BECAUSE WE WERE SWITCHING FROM REV TO SEMI AUTOS...MAN DOES THAT DATE ME...AT ANY RATE..AFTER DESTROYING 3 SMITHS THE FACTORY REP,BROUGHT OVER A BUNCH OF INFORMATION IN REF TO THE ACCURACY OF HIS...TRASHED..HANDGUNS....AND HEADVISED ME WITH A COMPLETELY HONEST FACE THAT THEY WILL SHOOT INTO 2.5 CENTIMETERS AT 50 YARDS......WELL WHEN I HANDED HIM HIS..GUNS,I TOLD HIM THAT IF THEY WOULD SHOOT THAT GOOD I WOULD PAY 2 GRAND FOR ONE...NONE THE LESS THEY WOULD NOT...WE ENDED UP WITH GLOCKS...BEST DEFENSIVE HANDGUN MADE....AND THE BEST WILL SHOOT,MAYBE..2 INCHES FROM A REST...THATS ALL I NEED....FER CQB

[Zachary]

Yes, I know that you guys are right.  These guns are for combat, and obviously not match purposes.  All I am saying is that I am surprised that these out-of-the-box semi-auto pistols are not as accurate as some of the hunting handguns that I own.

I really have no use for "combat" shooting, and I hope that I never have to.  But I guess that I should familarize myself with shooting these types of guns just in case, because "you never know" when I might need to use them.

Zachary

[cpobb]

Zachary, don't be disappointed that your granola bar doesn't taste like a turkey dinner!  The beretta and HK are designed for combat shooting, not accuracy at distance. They are some of the best factory brands available for this job, but their quality shows in their reliability and durability....these are the telltale qualities of of good personal defense gun.

[Mikey]

Zac:  With all due respect to all the posts you have received already on this topic, I have to say that their 'take' on  the accuracy of a 'combat' handgun is accurate.  

How so ever, not a one of those guns mentioned will give you the accuracy needed to make a rescue shot at any extended distance.  Somebody asked you why you would want to engage in a gunfight at 50 yds.  I think the question should not have been "why', but 'what if that's what it turned out to be', or 'what if there was only a one shot opportunity at an extended range that had to be taken'.  

Somebody also said you could buy a Kimber or something for $1700.  You don't have to go that distance.  A buncha years ago we figured out that you could either buy a pistol for close order defense at a reasonable price (under $500) and accurize it for a couple of hundred more, or buy a target pistol for lots more and just make certain it functioned reliably with combat ammo.  Back then you were talking basically Colt, or Springfield Armory, and either the Goldcup or the Gov't Model.  Now you have many, many more options but the basics remain.

Basic #1:  'Combat" handguns are likely to group four inches at 25 yds.  At 50 yds that becomes an 8" group.  Not good enough.  Sometimes this can be fixed, other times not.

Basic #2:  'Target' guns group much better but usually have 'rapid presentation' problems with bulky sights.  This can be fixed.

Basic #3:  Combat guns don't usually shoot light target loads well.  Not a good idea to try and fix this.

Basic#4:  Target guns may not like combat loads.  Can be fixed real easy.

Basic #5:  Nobody ever said the Beretta or the HK were all that accurate.  Can't be fixed.  

Story:  I went shooting with a fella in central NY.  He raved about his Beretta 92.  I took my Beretta 70S (380) and my Springfield GI 45.
He stood less than 10 meters from his target and shot out the entire 'X' ring.  I told him he was between me and the target.  I got this look but then he backed up to the firing line.  At 25 yds his groups opened up considerably and he was not happy.  At 25 yds my 380 grouped better than his 92.  At 25 yds my Springfield shot the 10 ring out of the target.

Some combat guns can be accurized to shoot well, some cannot.  Some target guns will shoot defensively, exceptionally well.   If you want a gun capable of making a rescue shot at 50 meters get one that will group to 2" at 50m with ball ammo and put a set of sights on it that won't snag your clothing or your holster.  This is why some guys still prefer the wheelgun.  I have a snubbie that clusters at 25m.  Can't ask for better than that.  Mikey.

[DEPUTY]

well then please, tell me how often do you practice a rescue shot at 50yds or greater with your handgun! under stress! and what type of training have you had to due so!  i have been a grad of many schools as well as a police offcer and as a current tactical firearms inst! and yes i practice those shots! but as most civilian ccw holders will never ever practice that shot!  you as a whole depending on the state in which you live can be found liable for taking such shots! it is far better to get those around you to cover and safe guard your postions! from advancement! by the hostiles! most handguns do not generate enough stopping power at those distances!  with heavy clothing or armor!  better to wait at secure cover and feed the police info on locations and descriptions!  and waiting for that shot to come!  yes most handguns are capable if tweaked but then again there is the crt liabilty of making your gun that much more letheal at those distances! etc etc . i speak from the fact i have seen these played out in crt!   not a slam on you ! but i never recomed that shot unless 100% sure you can under great stress

[dchi]

You say that you shoot 1 1/2" at 50 with you 454 and 480's is this scoped on sand bags? I would have some one else who is a really a good shot with a pistol try. Now if you are really good with pistol then I take back what I've said, it just too many guys tell me there pistols dont shoot well and they can shoot 1" at 100 all day long with a rifle and shoot 2" at 25 with a .22 handgun. I let them use my ransom rest and wha lah there bad pistol does 3" groups at 25 yards. On a side note I have seen most service 9mm group 3 1/2 to 4" at 25 wich is not too far off what you got. I did come across one ruger p 85 and one SW 5906 that would not do better than 6". Both guns were like new, clean, and shooting good factory ammo. I find most sigs shoot very well and I can't figure out why most .45's shoot well to. Not just 1911's but sigs,glocks, rugers and smith and even old loose GI models. Can some one explain that one to me?

[PaulS]

Dchi,

Why does the 45 ACP shoot well?

1 - nearly square powder charge

2 - heavy bullet

3 - leaves the barrel below the speed of sound and has no transition to deal with.


Why do 9 mm shoot 3 1/2 to 4 inch groups?

1 - moderately light bullets

2 - leaves the barrel at just above transonic velocities - they go into transonic velocities before 25 yards.

Any time your bullet starts out at velocities above the speed of sound they eventually have to slow to speeds where they cross down to sub-sonic speeds. In that transition buffeting can throw a bullet off point of aim and your groups open up. 45's and 22's start out slower than the speed of sound where the 9 mm are faster - but not enough faster that they can maintain supersonic speeds out at 50 yards. Most won't stay supersonic at 25 yards. You can prove it to yourself by shooting the "Hyper-Velocity" 22 LR ammo from a rifle at 10, 15, 20 and 25 yards. They will hold a real nice group to start out and then you will see a jump in group size between 15 and 25 yards. That is where it is breaking through the sound barrier.
The big magnum rounds will stay supersonic a lot longer because they leave the muzzle so much faster.