2nd bedding job-screwed up

[bluebayou]

I did my second bedding job.  This one on the Stevens 200 in 223.  It was intended as a practice run for the replacement Boyds stock when it comes in, but I am frustrated.  I understand what I did unless the stock flexed.

Before I started, the action rocked in the stock with no contact at the tang (Savage bolts are in different place).  The front support area behind the recoil lug was a wee lower than the rear support in front of the trigger.  I had good results with bedding the barrel up to the point that the barrel/scope balances on the first job (a Remington).  I poured bedding compound in the first 2 inches of the  barrel channel and on/around the recoil lug area.  I also blocked in some bedding compound around the tang.  I lowered the action in the stock and tightened the rear (trigger) action screw.  Here is where my mistake was somewhere.  I had contact with the bedding compound in the rear and compound squished out around the lug area so I figured that I was good to go.  My one known contact surface was tight and I had bedding compound against the other 2 contact points.  

So today I took it apart, reinserted the magazine box, no binding, everything looks great inside.  Now when I put the rear action screw back in the barrel is noticeably higher.  Long story short, I cannot get the front action screw into the action.  The front/lug area is too high and has made the stock off axis to the barrel.  

What happened?  Do I just grind it all out and repour?  How can it be off axis, but I have contact at the "trigger" screw and the tang?   Is it just too cheap of a stock to waste my time with?  This is one of those learning curve type situations.  I want to know for NEXT time.

[gunnut69]

My guess is you poured a bed with the action tilted up. tightening the rear screw pulled down and the action pivoted on the area in front of the trigger area and lifted the front of the rifle. There was enough excess bedding in the inlet to squeeze out. Looks like your error was forgetting that the barreled action has to be correctly positioned before allowing the bedding to set. I often use surgical tubing to retain the barreled action in the stock. Not too much pressure, don't want to flex(bend)  the action. The inletting guide screws layered with a bit of tape and waxed are used to keep the action screw holes open and the bottom metal is in place to keep everything in alignment..  A moto tool with a teardrop metal file will remove the misplaced bedding. A messy job but part of the learning curve..

[victorcharlie]

No big deal, but I understand your frustration.......but don't fret.......grind it out with a dremel......

Years ago while trying to make my Ruger 77 shoot the same hole, I bedded 9 different ways with several different mixtures........took a couple of years but I learned a lot and the rifle shot great with my hand loads.

I go to the hardware store and ask for the brass grindings from the key making machine......I mix this in with the product (acuglas or other epoxy).

This makes the mix a little stiffer depending on how much you add, but seems to make the epoxy much stronger as it's harder to grind out with a dremel than straight acuglas.  Kind of like adding sand or gravel to concrete.

Even if you get what you consider the perfect bedding job, and the rifle doesn't shoot, then you'll probably need to rethink the bedding, grind it out and try something different.

The key is to have fun, have patience, and enjoy what your doing.

[Savage .250]

The June issue of the NRA, American Rifleman has an article about
   " Glass bedding a Rifle stock".  The author takes it step by step, may be
    of some help to you.
   It`s a (2) part article so you`ll  need the next issue for the final
   steps.  

[bluebayou]

Thanks for the words of encouragement.  I was frustrated yesterday after working 9 hours and playing with the kids and then I try to assemble the rifle late at night and no dice.

I think that you are right, Gunnut, the action must have see-sawed on the one contact point and there was just enough epoxy to flow out at the other two areas.  If anything, the stock was tilted down toward the muzzle.  I had the tubing wrapped tight, but again it was at the back of the action.  

Going to grind it out, and try to learn from it.  Will have to order some more bedding compound.

[gunnut69]

The best idea is to get the bedding as good as possible before glassing and leave at least 2 supports for the barreled action. One to the rear and one up front. Don't apply too much pressure to the tubing as the receiver can bend. I usually bed the receiver ring and a few inches of the barrel first, following with the rear tang last. Barrel bedding is done last unless it's a 10/22 in which case I barrel bed only and let the receiver float(minimum support only). I buy the acraglass gell in a bulk pack and reinforce with aluminum dust. It's light and doesn't rust easily.

[JD11]

I think that you are right, Gunnut, the action must have see-sawed on the one contact point and there was just enough epoxy to flow out at the other two areas. If anything, the stock was tilted down toward the muzzle. I had the tubing wrapped tight, but again it was at the back of the action.

I just did mine about a week ago and I was worried about that very thing, since after gouging out the so much of the stock areas how do you know if the barrelled action is seated correctly in the stock?    My barrelled action would also rock up and down a bit pivoting near the lug area.  I had free-floated the barrel at the same time, so to center the barrel in the stock plus have it lifted so the barrel would not drop down and touch the fore-end as the bedding was setting up, I wrapped the forward end of the barrel with tape equal to the thickness of my freefloating gap so the taped area was cradled in the stock forend tip.   I used Score High's pillars so having the screws line up with the receiver holes wasn't an issue while the epoxy set up.  You temporarily install the trigger housing with their special fixture screws.  If you go to their site, they have great step by step instructions, plus a very excellent complete kit.  
   Gunnut, what do you think, do you have an easier or more accurate way?

[gunnut69]

Don't know if it's better or not but I just leave a 1/8 inch strip at the rear of the receiver ring. With a bit of the tang inlet that's enough to hold the barreled action nice and level. The headless guide screws and the bottom metal I plan on using keep everything lined up. If pillars are desired they should be installed last as they don't really affect the bedding. The just keep the bedding from changing over time.. I used to use the turned pillars but have converted almost completely to poured in place pillars. they are much more precise and are a bunch easier.. better and easier, my kinda deal.. I used to use stockmakers handscrews to hold the action and bottom metal together but the guide screws keep all in line and a piece of surjical tubing provides a bit of tension to hold it all together. Always leave the barrel to last. It can have tip pressure or be full length bedded or it can be full length bedded with a free cloat cast in. As you wish.  I've used many different materials but haven't found anything I like better than the AcraGlass gel. It stays where its put, fairly well, is easy to mix. It's not as hard as some material but more than hard enough to prevent battering..and it won't shatter or crack with heavy impact!  No jigs needed and the metal work I am going to use tells me where it wants to be..

[dave375hh]

Never use the action screws when doing a bedding job. Buy or make guide screws to prevent rocking or flexing the action. Savage uses the same guide screws as a rem. 700. These can be made from 1/4 X 28 NF bolts that have the heads cut off. If the action is rocking try putting masking tape around the barrel untill it sits level. Don't put the tape near the glass just use it to stop the rocking. I use a Quick grip clamp with only enough pressure to hold the action in place. These have rubber jaws and will hold things still with almost no pressure. One clamp over the frt reciever ring only. Let the glass self-level itself.

[bluebayou]

Dude, thase are good ideas with the masking tape and the quick clamp.  Thanks.  (thanks to JD for mentioning the tape too)

[JD11]

(thanks to JD for mentioning the tape too)

You're welcome, I hope it goes better for you this next time.  I had a couple scary moments with my job too.  Although I thought I'd used more than enough release agent, I had fits getting one of my pillar retaining screws out.  One thing that made quite a few phases of the job way easier was using a Dremel tool versus files, chisels, etc.   If you don't have one and been thinking of getting one anyway, now would be the time.

[bluebayou]

I went back to the Savage.  After getting a great pour into the inletting and being really happy with the alignment (thanks for the tip on using tape on the barrel to keep the height)........I used the wrong action screw at the chamber area.  I used the long screw that goes back by the trigger guard.  Now I have epoxy at the chamber where the bolt lugs go.  I can't think of the technical name.... but you should get my drift.  I got most of it out with a handy paperclip bent around into a loop and my little finger.  There is definately epoxy drying in there right now though.  I bet that it will just scrape out with wooden stick and use, but do you guys have any ideas?  Surely I am not the only one to ever do this.

[gunnut69]

Your speaking of the locking lug recesses or the locking lug abutments. Hopefully there'l be enough oil/grease/wax in there to allow the stuff to turn loose. If not it can be disolved with acetone..

[JD11]

Another option, if you're trying to remove some epoxy from a hard to get at area, is go to a good auto parts house and look at their choices of cutters that can be used in a power drill.  They're a smooth shaft that goes in your drill and they have a "ball" shaped end and the ball has serrations on it that removes material.   They work well for hard to reach places.  They come in different lengths, shapes, and sizes and if I remember right, they're not too spendy.

[gunnut69]

I would advise against the use of rotary files in the area of the recoil lug abutments in your action. Heating the action until it's uncomfortable to hold should cause the bedding to release. Damaging the locking lugs abutments would be a dangerous decision.

[bluebayou]

As luck would have it I had liberally coated the bolt with High Pressure, High Heat Moly grease to work on smoothing it up.  The epoxy just flaked right off.  There is a touch of it left on the barrel/receiver threads but the bolt opens and closes like normal.  

I botched the recoil lug area somehow.  The left rear of the recoil lug inletting did not take the epoxy.  Maybe it was dirty.  I tried a third time with just a dab of epoxy.  It did not stick that time either.  Really it is just an eighth inch or so.  I think that I will take it out to shoot.  It is a 223 and the recoil lug itself is almost too tight of fit, so hopefully it will be okay.  Like I said earlier it is a temporary stock, but I still wanted to do it right.

[gunnut69]

I use tape applied to the front, sides and bottom of recoil lugs so that when removed there is play in the hole they fit in. Tjhis helps with takedown and accuracy is unaffected.. You must degrease before repouring as release agents will prevent sticking of the new material to the old.. When installing the material into the inlet it is helpful to apply some to the metal directly and pour the rest into the inletting as a pile down the center. When the metal is lowered into place the material is forced sideways and up, pushing air ahead. Bubbles and so forth are greatly reduced..

[dave375hh]

Please no flames intended, but given your efforts so far, maybe it's time to take it to a pro. Perhaps he'll allow you to observe the process and learn what you did or didn't do. My first effort was a mess, but I had a very compitent friend to bail me out. It's sort of the picture being worth a thousand words type of deal.

[gunnut69]

dave375hh certainly has a point but as long as you're learning from your mistakes it can usually work out. Many pro's learned the same way you are and I still have problems occassionally.. Different models and makers also have differing problems and needs.. I guess what I', trying to say(poorly I might add) is that we're all still learning and will until the day we die.. This is one of the more complex jobs but one that an ameture can complete safely.  Some tasks are best left to a pro for sadties sake but bedding can be altered all you wish.. safely!

[JD11]

I would advise against the use of rotary files in the area of the recoil lug abutments in your action. Heating the action until it's uncomfortable to hold should cause the bedding to release. Damaging the locking lugs abutments would be a dangerous decision.

My mistake, I miss-read and thought the problem was some unwanted epoxy down in a certain area of the stock.

[bluebayou]

DAVE!  Yeah, you came close to some flames.  I would go to a psychologist before I would go to mechanic or a gunsmith.  It is just one of those "got to figure it out myself" kind of things.  Online advice doesn't count to me because I am still doing the work with my own hands.  

I think that it looks pretty good.  The issue was not degreasing the recoil lug area in the stock.  It looks like release agent from a trial run was on the stock in a few places.  I got to looking closer and it was all over in different places.

Was trying to do too much in one night (wife and kids were out of town so I was fixing the bedding job, finishing the sanding on the boat, and trying to finish Episode 1, Chapter 5 of Lego Star Wars for the PS2).

[gunnut69]

Whenever reporing a bedding job getting the release agent off is always a problem.. As to seeing a pro.. you've probably seen me say to take it to a smith.. Some jobs can get dangerous.. As a youngster a smith who became a very close friend told me once that the most difficult thing to do was to say, "that's beyond my skill". But it is an important thing to know.  I guess Harry Callahan said it best. "A man's just gotta know his limits"...  If I think it's too dangerous you may rest assured, I will say so.. But this ain't rocket science.. cammon sense will most often keep you outa trouble.. and of course everyone makes mistakes...

[bluebayou]

For years I did everything on my car except work on the brakes.  I just wasn't comfortable with anything related to brakes.  I didn't understand the vacuum system and I didn't trust myself to work with the lines.  I have since tackled the brake system.  

I understand your point.  With rifles I follow the reloading info strictly.  I am not comfortable with changing OAL right now.  OAL and headspace don't quite gel in my head yet.

[victorcharlie]

You'll get it the way you want it........don't get discouraged.......bedding compound it cheap......and when it's right you'll have the satisfaction of knowing you did it yourself......and you'll be ready to do your next one.

[gunnut69]

Amen VC!!(never thought I'd ever say that!!)

Overall length is just the length of a loaded round of ammo.  Headspace refers to the dimensional interfaces of the chamber and the ammo. In reference to ammo it is the distance from the case head to the reference point on the case and that differes from case type to case type. On a bottlenecked rimless or rebated case like the 308 Win the round is measured from the casehead to a datum line on the shoulder as the case rests on the shoulder when in the chamber. A rimmed case uses the front surface of the rim to hold the case against the bolt face and thus the thickness of the rim is the headspace length. In belted cases the front surface of the belt is what holds the round in the chamber and against the bolt face..  In rimless straight cases like the 45ACP the round rests on the mouth of the case..  If reloading is added to the mix we can develope several headspacing problems, particularly with rimmed or belted cases.  If the case is sized in the normal manner the die body is screwed against the shell holder and the case iss resized. If this pushed the shoulder of the case back too much the round will still feed and fire but the shoulder will be blown forward and the resulting case stretch drastically shortens case life.. The proper method set the die is to adjust it down until it just touches the shoulder of the case. Then adjust it further down but just until the resized case will easily enter the chamber of the rifle it is to be used in. This may not allow the round to function in a rifles but will give the minimum case stretch for that case in that rifle..and is how all belted or rimmed bottle necked cases should be resized.. Remember that all things manufactured are not exactly the correct size. There is a range of sizes that are 'OK' for a certain caliber.. This is the headspace range for that caliber. To gauge chambers we use steel guages made to incredible tolerances that equate to the minumum length for a certain caliber called a 'go guage' and the maximum measurement for a caliber called a 'no go guage'. The bolt (or action) should close on the GO GUAGE but should NOT close on the NO GO GUAGE. There is another guage in a full set called the 'FIELD GUAGE'. It guages the length of a chamber to check if the headspace measurement is excessive enough to cause a case failure if the weapon is fired. Most smiths today would never certify for firing a weapon that would close on a NO GO guage. FIELD GUAGES are seldom used today.. OAL referns to cartridges only but headspace measurements effect ammo, chambers and reloading tools...

[bluebayou]

That's an interesting point about
"Then adjust it further down but just until the resized case will easily enter the chamber of the rifle it is to be used in. This may not allow the round to function in a rifles but will give the minimum case stretch for that case in that rifle"

All of my 7mm-08 cases show a lot of tool marks (whatever you want to call the work marks down by the webbing at the base) and I am trimming 1rst reload, 2nd reload and 4th reload.  Someone here said that was a lot of trimming.  Maybe I have a longish chamber.  It might be inside the NO-GO length.  Was thinking about one of those RCBS mic things.  The 7mm-08 is my "go to" gun that gets all of the action.  At least for this one caliber it might be a worth the $35.  That would also get me the numbers for seating depth.  I guess that is what I am concerned about with OAL.  I have gone with the book on OAL because of reluctance to experiment with smoking or markering to find the length to the lands.  

In any event, I will experiment with my die setup on a 10 cases and see how much case stretching goes on.

Thanks for the encouragement, VictorCharlie.  I think that there is a fine line between not wanting to compromise and being obsessive.  As long as it isn't interfering with work or family then I figure that I am not being obsessive.  Stubborn.....

[gunnut69]

This is called partial sizing and works pretty well. It will also touch the shoulder a bit on the side not the face of the shoulder.. If you ue this technique problems with tolerances between the chamber and the sizing die will be ignored.  With the 7-08 it sounds as if you may have a minimum tolerance sizer and a maximum tolerance chamber. Try partial sizing, sizing just until the case will fit into the rifle's chamber and just starts to touch the shoulder. This will strictly limit how much those cases can grow..and limit your trimming..