TC inconsistency issue maybe easy to fix

[expeditionx]

I was reading a few threads on this issue.
I recently purchased my first TC ( G2 ).
When I got around to bedding a .223 bull barrel, i noticed that those side flaps of wood that cover the front of the receiver prevent the user from removing the hinge pin that anchors the barrel to the receiver.

My immediate thought was this can be an accuracy/consistency issue.

Every time you remove a barrel the hand guard has to be removed too.
By removing the handguard, two things can potentially affect your point of impact later.
1. Slight reposition of the handguard-barrel contact surfaces.
2. The hand guard screws could potentially be tighter or looser the next time they are tightened.

It might not seem like it would affect accuracy/consistency, but its the little things like these that change barrel vibration patterns just enough to alter point of impact.

Humorous side note:  I once saw someone shooting a Remington autoloading rifle at an outdoor range.  The fellow was having a devil of a time with his accuracy/consistency. He was trying to sight in a hunting load.  I noticed he kept touching his barrel slightly with the tips of his left index and middle finger as he shot his rifle.  His point of impact shifted often as much as 7 inches at 100 yards away.  I suggested shooting without touching the barrel with his fingers.  He said his barrel was well bedded and it wouldnt matter anyway.  He later was surprised when I shot  5 .308 match rounds into the space of a nickle at 100 yards and could consistently hit the same spot.  Little things can make a difference.

Ok, back to the TC issue.  I cut off the wood flaps on a standard handguard, and then bedded and refinished the handguard.
The flaps are no longer there to interfere with removing the hinge pin.
I can take the barrel and attached handguard off without having to disconnect the hand guard.

Now, its time to try shooting my new TC G2.
When I get a chance to drive to the outdoor range about an hour away,
I will remove and replace the the barrel throughout my range session and look for any changes in points of impact due to the barrel removal/replacement.

[Grumulkin]

Of course, the "flaps" are there to keep the pin from coming out but I guess if you aren't using the gun for anything serious like hunting, they probably don't matter.  If you have the normal TC hindge pins that have a little slop, then this might make a difference.  My Encores both have oversized Bellm hinge pins which takes out the slop so this should make no difference.

My 30/06 Encore consistently shoots the first shot high (about 2½ inches with Hornady Interbonds) from a cold uncleaned barrel and then shoots right on.  The only plausable theorey I've been able to come up with as to why this is so is barrel heating.  I've thinking about having the barrel cryo treated (a mysterious black art in itself) to see if that will make a difference.

[Keith L]

I think the vast majority of Contender and Encore owners don't experience the "inconsistency" you refer to.  I don't discount that there may be certain guns that are not made to spec and the problems written about by the few show up.  But I also think your "fix" ruined your forearm, and you will be replacing it in the future.  If the pin comes out you will have inconsistency.

None of my three contenders have any slop so I don't feel the need for oversized pins.  One is original and well shot, the other two are G2 and only a couple years old.

Enjoy your Contender.  Have fun with it.  That is what it is for.

[expeditionx]

I havnt been able to shoot it yet.
I was not aware that the hinge pin might be loose enough to fall out while the barrel is locked up in full engagement.
I would think that if the pin moved even as much as a 64th of an inch out of centered alignment the point of impact might be affected.
Without the wood flaps, its probably easier to check alignment before each shot.
Thankyou for advising me of the loose hinge pin potential.

[Keith L]

Just to satisfy my curiosity, if you are so convinced that the G2 is faulty that you had to modify it before shooting it why did you buy one?  My guess is this will be a self fulfilling proficy:  you think its junk so it will be.

I doubt that the pin will shift when the gun is locked up.  But some of my barrels are loose enough so the pin can shift with the gun open.  I have never noticed any change in point of impact.  And I am fussy.  I think you are to worried about this.  Shoot the gun.  Enjoy it.  They are good guns that shoot well.  You may even become like most of us, starting with one frame and barrel and ending with a bunch.

Also, what some guys do to prevent the pin from moving they use the metalic tape that auto body guys use to keep it in place.  I think duct tape could work as well.

[expeditionx]

I bought it a while back before I ever read any threads/posts at GBO.
Its been a while.  The nearest outdoor range is an hour away so I dont get to go too often because of schedule time constraints.
I think the G2 is a great design. It is quality craftsmanship you dont see too often anymore.  I refinished my altered hand guard and stock with color dye and behr tung oil finish.  It looks great.  Im going to try out 5 different factory .223 loads.  From past read posts on other boards regarding the 1 in 12 rifle twist, the concensus has been using 55 grain bullets and lighter.   I have some winchester white box 45 grain jacketed hollow points, federal 55 grain nosler ballistic tip ammo, remington umc 55 grain fmj ammo, wolf .223 55 grain all copper jacket new polycoated cases ( not lacquered ), and some pmc fmj.
I would guess any of these loads would shoot 1.5 MOA or less in my new G2 at 100 yards.  Because of the price, I hope the Winchester 45 grain ones do well.  If that one does well, I might use it to hunt foxes one of these days. Im hoping the wolf does well, for casual plinking.
I am looking forward to a very positive experience with my G2.

[expeditionx]

Keith L,

I had a long conversation with a Remington technical assitance rep a few years back.  He was a technical trouble shooter.  He mentioned that changing torque tension settings on the stock screws even by a few pounds would change bullet impact.  If I remember correctly, the factory recommended 65 lbs of torque tension on the screws of the 700 VS.
I had zeroed my rifle and then tried to tighten the screws thinking they got loose.  The tightening shifted the impact by a few inches.
The same happened on a CZ 452 in .22 lr.  
Regarding the TC G2, if you torque your screws back on at exactly the same lbs every time that should help minimize the tension irregularities for those people that wrote about experiencing impact shifting.

[Keith L]

Consider this:  The Contender and the Encore differ from the guns you mentioned in that the stock is two piece.  The effect of torque is profound on guns where pressure on the action also puts pressure on the barrel.  With the Contender/Encore the only difference may be in affecting slightly harmonics.  I don't see that with any of my guns.  I have used stainless steel flat washers to space the forearm off the barrel, and also used rubber o rings.  One stock I have uses a hanger bar system.  I have switched between them and found one thing for sure:  if I do my part the gun works great regardless.



Don"t talk yourself into a problem you most likely don't have. Shoot your gun and enjoy it!

[Bullseye]

Well I have also read all the supposed fixes.  I have found that I never needed any oversized hinge pins, spacers or any other gizmos to make most of mine shoot.  The one barrel I had that would not shoot worth a toot I even tried shooting without a forarm which should eliminate all these variables.  Guess what? It still did not shoot, just a bum barrel.

I have a 14" 223 with a factory forearm and no "fixes" done to it and it will shoot sub MOA with my reloads or Winchester White Box on any of the 3 frames I put it on and I just tighten the forarm with a screwdriver.

My advice is to chill out about speculating about what the gun needs and shoot it.  Out of about 20-25 factory barrels I have only had one that I could not make shoot.

[skb2706]

Kinda like shootin the horse 'before he breaks his leg'. My personal feeling is that most of the "inconsistencies" can be traced directly to "operator error" and not the gun at all.

[Bullseye]

skb2706

Well said.  I was trying to not be so blunt and to the point, but I agree.

[rimfire]

Grumulkin,

That 30-06 that shoots high on the first shot...it may be that the first shot is burning the solvent/oil out of your freshly cleaned barrel and changing POI.  Several of my Contenderes do exactly the same thing with the first 1 or 2 shots going high after a cleaning.

[Grumulkin]

It does shoot higher with a freshly cleaned barrel which I understand.  The first shot also goes high from an uncleaned barrel; not to the extent as with a freshly cleaned barrel but still about 2.5 inches high.

[rimfire]

Aassumng your forend is not being removed and replaced, is your forend floated or pillar bedded?  I would think th only way temp would affect it this much would be if it was adjusting the barrel to stock fit.  A little sanding or makeshift pillars might help you out.

I had a Contender carbine ML go from 6-7" groups at 100 yards to 1" at 100 yards after 5 minutes with a piece of sandpaper so forend fit is a first look now for me when my Contenders will not shoot.

If you shoot one shot and then wait 15 minutes for the temp to settle and shoot one again are they together up there?

[eglsong]

I am new to TC Encore.  I have 3 barrels  %0 cal ML, 338/06 and a 375 H7H.   The 50 cal barrel was replaced a falty by the factory.  The 338/06 was shipped back last week.  First shot 4-6 inches high and 1-2 inches left. Next shots on target with about a 1 inch spread.  I changed the to contact only on the screw points.   Same results only that shots 2-4 were 2 inches low. Called TC and they said to send it back.   The 375 shoot all shots into 1.5 inches at 100 yards.  So out of my three barrels it looks like 2 are bad.

[hyltoto]

They will fix defective stuff, but I like companies that try to eliminate problems before they impact the custome. Of course, this is my business. I have had many barrels and 1 in 8 was a stinker.

I have a 50 muzzleloader that has a bore so tight you cannot push a sabot down it.

I know about 15 other people that have muzzel oaders and nobody else has this issue. Just sloppy manufacturing technique.

[Swift One]

bellm

[expeditionx]

Range report:
First time using a .223 TC 23 inch barrel.
I sighted in at 100 yards with Winchester 45 grain JHP rounds.
Went out to 200 yards and shot a 3 shot group.
The 3 shot group was a half inch center to center.
Pulled the barrel off the gun and then reassembled it.
The next shot was at the same point of impact as before.