7.62x39 vs .223 for HD Rifle...

[DEPUTY]

I love this.
the 223 would be my choice due to the unlimited amount of ammo selection's for its use for different barrel twist depending on the series of your weapon! say an early sp1 with a 1-12 twist to a 1x8 dpms etc....
you are very limited to the rounds avaliable for the com block caliber, (ie) 122 fmj 148fmj and 125 softpoint to i belive some special stuff from cor bon, rbcd and glasser? which are to expensisve for testing! to prove reliable
instead of retyping all this info ill poost the links for grins my home gun is a pre ban m-4 colt with modular flip up sights a sure fire an aimpoint in ggg mounts with a 20rnders in a redi mag loaded with horandy tap with the and the spare is loaded with ss-109! single point sling

http://www.olyarms.com/223cqb.html

i have more info as well but this will serve you as a start

[mainehunt]

I agree with Deputy.  I have an AK and an AR.  Unless I spend a lot of $$ on the AK ammo, all I find are steel bullets.  Even the "hollow points" that I bought were steel. (Cheap Wolf ammo)  I didn't believe it until I shot through blocks of dry oak.  It penetrated 14 inches of one block, then lodged 3" in another.  I split that chunk and retrieved the bullet.  It wasn't even mis-shaped.  I put it in the vice and cut it in half with a hacksaw.  Solid steel. Sticks solid to a magnet.
I would not shoot that inside a house.
Lots more bullet selection on the .223'sl.  And much cheaper!

[DPRinks]

Why would you want a hardball weapon for home defense?
I prefer a .410 sxs with #6's, my 1917 with cast hollowpoints or for my blind wife, a .38sp with Speer shot capsules full of #7 1/2.
Are you expecting to have to defend your home from armed hordes of brigands?
Don

[DEPUTY]

Don i sugjest you go do some homework and re read several  topics on this  the 223 has proven to be a better stopper than those you have mentioned with the correct loading  such ass 55 grain psp 62 psp, 55 tap 65 tap and 77 grain otm loadings trust me on this! i have seen it first hand, the 223 is not just a hardballer as you say

[rockbilly]

Deputy, I spent two tours in Vietnam, about three months into my first tour I put the M-16 away and picked up an AK-47.  I didn't wait that long the second tour, I was looking for one the day I arrived in country.

Say what you like, but I've seen and used both when my life was on the line.  The "books/charts" may indicate the .223 is a better round, but I still prefer the .30 caliber sized bullet.

The best choice for a HD gun is still a 12 gauge with 00 buck.........I can squeeze the trigger six times and lay down 72 near .30 caliber pellets.  At close range (in the house) I think that's more effective than either of the above mentioned choices.

Don't want to start an argument, just my point of view.

[DEPUTY]

no argument! i understand the drawbacks of the old systems in 60's and 70's but todays ammo and guns are better than they were! the newer 223 loadings are much better stoppers i wouldnt use the ak/sks due to lack of ammo selections and its overoentration issues! the shotgun is a good stopper for sure at time and at others i have seen if fail! the 223 has never failed to impress me in cqb/homedefense due to the 223 dumping all its energy in a very rapid expansion up close causing such tramua, with less reocil than a 12 gauge

[huntsman]

Dep, I'd like to hear your story of how you saw the 12 gauge fail to perform as a good stopper (properly loaded for HD, I'm hoping).

[DEPUTY]

Sure, ill sum it up gun 870 rem police model 2.75 load of oo buck fed prem.  subject had a 30/06 bolt gun wasted on jack d. shot at 15 feet or so with a bean bag load does nadda he raises rifle first officer hits him with 2 rounds of 230 grain hydra shoks  knocks guy back! he raises gun, second offcer same distace zapps him with 12 gauge 9 pellets hit him. subject falls back raise rifle gets off another shot live to get  a few yrs! subject was wearing a carhartt jacket and and sweatshirt!  all caught on dash cam! shotgun man was and old friend of mine, and trainer he now carries an ar-15 loaded with 65 grain tap ammo

[huntsman]

Sounds like the BG wouldn't have been put down quick with much of anything (including .223) given his "spiritual" condition! Anyway it does go to show that circumstances (soft body armor) sometimes dictate different tactics. The second and following shots should not have been into that Carhart jacket/sweatshirt combo, given the results. Something to be said for slugs as backup rounds in shotguns, too, I've always felt.

[DEPUTY]

well again testing protacals on 223 have shown it a better choice on materials, slugs i agree with, trouble with trying to due a head shot with buckshot is were are the other pellets going! thats when a select drill come into play with the shotgun(time consuming though) were as a 223 rifle aim up press the trigger when the top of the sight   hits the face area! snap shooting/point shooting it works well certian things the 223 does overcome  is it is a better choice for failure or rescue shots, i have seen other shotgun failures!  not as many with the 223! also the chance of short stroking a pump gun is a real issue were you cant with a 223 under stress many weird things happen, by all mean get out and pattern test your guns,  with different loads and see, then try rapid fire drills at those distances, then do it with a 223 see which is faster and easier to get hits with then try it say wounded with one arm with your shotgun! the 223 is a better more user defined gun for all situations

[rockbilly]

Well guess you have me convinced.  I'll get the AR out of the safe and prime it up.  You think I ought to go with the Colt or the Bushmaster?  Maybe the Bushmaster in 7.62x39.  But I'm still gonna leave the ole 12 gauge under the bed.

As I said earlier, I just picked up a Norinco 98.  I plan to stick with it rather than the AR.  I travel a lot, some of the states I visit kinda frown on handguns and anything that looks like an assault rifle.  

My son  recently had an unwanted visitor in his bedroom as he and his wife lay in the bed sleeping.  Most likely a firearm of any type would not have helped unless he was sleeping with it his hands (I don't recommend that).  I think if he had woke up, someone may have been hurt bad, and at that point the bad guy had the edge. I don't THINK that could happen to me with a barking poodle and schnauzer sharing my bed.  If they wake me, I may not have time to reach for the glasses, a light and the gun, so I have the light attached to the shotgun, and as blind as I am I don't think I can miss a bad guy in the hallways of my house even if I can't find the glasses.  I'm counting on the dogs to wake me before he gets to the bedroom.  My wife's cell phone is already set on speed dial for 911, I told her to that if it does happen, tell the 911 operator we have an intruder and shots were fired. ( that always get a quicker response from the cops) Course before they get in, they gotta get past the pit/rottweiler in the yard.  He is a good dog, but will bite a stranger.  

It's really a damn shame we even have to consider things like this, I grew up in the 40s, never locked a door, slept with just the screen dore closed, and best I remember never lost anything.  I spent 25 years in the military (retired in 1977), been around the world, and even considering Vietnam I never felt as unsafe as I do today here in the good old USA.

I just learned, the cops think they have caught the kids that broke in my son's home.  Two seventeen year olds that broke out of a JD facility in San Antonio.  One was from this area

[DEPUTY]

which ever one you fill best with! both are good makers! now as a travel gun there could be issues! i have a 5th wheel that goes a lot of places with me! i carry pistol about everywhere i can in the usa, i have a buddy who is a cowboy  shooter guy and loves his leverguns  he carries a marlin that has been cut to 16.5 inches and is in 38/357 with ghost rings sights!  and is loaded up with 38 silvertips! not sure about that one in the camp site? me i would go with either a 223 with a raipd expanding 223 load 55 jsp or psp! or a 20 gauge with  bird shot! i know i know yes a 20 gauge with birdshot which normally iam against but special situations call for special guns and loads :roll:

[beard01]

I THINK THE AK47 ROUND has a little advantage when using the right ammo. The yugo ammo is square on end instead of boatailed and upon entry into flesh rotates 90 degrees in the first 2 or 3 inches of flesh then during the next 8 or 9 inches of travel rotates the opposite direction till it exits backwards. just my 02  beard 01

[S.S.]

That tumbling will occour with most FMJ rifle bullets
given the proper velocity. That is why the M16 was
touted as making TERRIBLE wounds when it first arrived
in NAM. The velocity + the rifling twist made for a very
unstable projectile on impact. Then the powers that be
decided that they wanted the weapon to be more accurate
and started playing with the twist. This of course created
a pretty accurate weapon but due to the "NOW STABILIZED"
projectile, it was not nearly as unstable on impact.
thus a less lethal wound. I don't know how many of you
folks got to actually use one of those early M16's with the early
ammo, but if you were to fire a dozen rounds or so
at a empty fuel drum at a couple of hundred meters,
I would say that half would keyhole on impact. They
were tumbling before they even got there.
The modern M16 is not nearly the stopper that the
originals were they are just lots more accurate.
All of the above goes out the window in a civilian setting
where something other than a FMJ projectile can be used.
A .223 Ballistic tip makes a wound that will make a TRAUMA
Surgon puke. And it will do it from point blank to several
hundred yards.  I still like a 7.62 though!