Author Topic: CZ 453 Varmint OK to use in Hunter Class? (Read 1807 times)

Snomon · « **on:** May 30, 2006, 04:29:15 AM »

Hello,
I'm been doing some research on getting a CZ as a starter setup for silhouette was wondering if the CZ 453 can qualify for Hunter class.

I've read on this forum and other silhouette sites that the NRA ruled that CZ 452 Varmint can stay in hunter class because it's bull barrel is tapered.

The 453 is the same as the 452 except it now has the CZ single set trigger. 2 lbs on normal and 1/2 pound when it's set out of the box.

I also wonder if it's possible to be in Hunter class "if you don't use the set trigger" and go into the Standard class if you want to use the set trigger.

Moderator let me know if this should have been posted in the CZ Forum.

Thanks.

Jason · « **Reply #1 on:** May 31, 2006, 10:55:29 AM »

The 453s are only legal for hunter class if the trigger is adjusted so that the set feature can't be used at all, since there's no way to adjust it so that it's over 2lbs even when it's set. As it comes from the factory, it's not legal for hunter but is for standard. You are correct that the heavier barrel of the Varmint being tapered makes the barrel ok for hunter class.

drover · « **Reply #2 on:** June 07, 2006, 04:33:22 PM »

The NRA silhouette rule book states the following under Hunting Silhouette Rifle ; "Trigger: Trigger pull shall not be less than 2 pounds."

If your trigger in the unset mode will meet the 2 pound weight limit then it will be legal for hunter class and yes, if you shoot the rifle in the standard class then you could use the set mode. No where in the rule book does it state that the trigger must be adjusted so that the set feature cannot be used. This may be the interpretation at some clubs but it is not addressed that way in the rule book, there is the possibility that you may be hassled about the set trigger at some clubs but there is nothing in the rule book to support their position.

It is doubtful that you will gain any points by going from the unset to set mode because any advantage of the lighter pull will more than likely be offset by the increase in lock time that is created when using the set mode of the trigger.

nomad · « **Reply #3 on:** June 07, 2006, 06:47:27 PM »

Drover

Just as you said, the rule requires that: "The trigger pull shall not be less than 2 pounds."
It doesn't say: "In some modes, the trigger may be less than 2 pounds as long as it's at least 2 pounds in others." Or: "In at least one mode, the trigger must not be less than 2 pounds."

It just says that "THE trigger pull" shall not be less than 2 pounds.

According to Greg Conner, that means that, if there's any way that the trigger can be made to break with a pull of less than 2 pounds, it is not acceptable.

At Greg's request, I called CZ and talked with their tech people. They told me that the set function can be adjusted out of any of their triggers and, according to GC, that is the only way that those triggers are acceptable.

You might get it by tech at a lot of matches with the set function working -- just as you can sometimes get by with non-functional safeties on hunters (because some tech guys are not as up on the rules or the equipment as they should be) -- but it won't fly if I'm doing the tech unless I'm asleep that day!

I believe, of course, that NOBODY in silhouette would cheat by surreptitiously pushing that little metal dingus forward a quarter of an inch to get a 6 oz 'hunter' trigger...of course, I do! (And I'd love to buy that bridge you own up in New York! lol)

B_Koes · « **Reply #4 on:** June 08, 2006, 03:47:41 AM »

Now I haven't seen the innards of CZ's set trigger, but I'm wondering how it increases the lock time. I'd assume the lock time would be the same.

nomad · « **Reply #5 on:** June 08, 2006, 05:16:19 AM »

BK,

Drover's right about that. Any set trigger will increase lock time (assuming that you consider lock time to be the time from 'trigger break to shot' and not 'striker release to shot') because they all work on similar principals: The trigger, when set, kicks off a spring-loaded 'dog' that hits the sear and that releases the striker. That takes longer. (That's a VERY simplified explanation.)

That said, set triggers have been used for years on Free Rifles and Free Pistols (although now out of favor) and on lots of other precision firearms for some very fine results. (Ask some of the Schuetzen guys!) I can't agree with Drover that a set trigger is a handicap -- under the right conditions and in the hands of someone who understands one.

ppk1 · « **Reply #6 on:** June 08, 2006, 08:35:22 AM »

Guys, Please enlighten me. How does the CZ set trigger differ from the Anshutz two stage trigger which I think is legal for hunter. Or is it?
Pete

dave imas · « **Reply #7 on:** June 08, 2006, 09:03:02 AM »

Pete,

With a set trigger you are either pushing or pulling a lever, or i believe with timney, the trigger itself, in to a locked position which diminished the trigger pressure necessary to break the shot. (see Ernie's explanation of what is actually going on inside) This action/activity is NOT part of breaking the shot. it is done prior to actually applying pressure to your trigger with intent to shoot.

after the trigger is "set" you will then hold and break your shot with a lower trigger pull.

Assuming a 2 stage/2lb trigger, regardless of what weight you have your first and second stages set at, when you finally break the trigger you will be applying 2lbs of pressure.

i don't know if i helped or made it more confusing?
dave

ppk1 · « **Reply #8 on:** June 08, 2006, 09:30:39 AM »

Dave, Thanks that's very clear. It would make sense to explain that the actual break or transfer of the mechanics to the firing pins forward motion was the result of applying 2 lbs of force to the trigger not just to disengage the set. Although this seems like a techy explaination I like to use the DUCK analysis....if it looks like a duck, ect.
Pete

nomad · « **Reply #9 on:** June 08, 2006, 10:54:52 AM »

Pete,

Dave did explain it well but I think you may still have a misunderstanding of set triggers.

When 'set', the trigger is MUCH lighter because the mechanical advantage is much greater in that mode.

When using a set trigger in the 'set' mode, you are NOT pulling 2 pounds to release the sear -- or 'disengage the set'. In fact, you normally reduce the pull from X-many POUNDS to a few OUNCES. (You are only applying the pull needed to break the trigger loose from a lighly-loaded mechanical link and that link then swings under spring tension to impact the sear and effect release.)

This really is one of those situations where a KISS explanation may not be enough to promote understanding... (A set trigger may walk like a duck and defecate through a ring of feathers but it don't quack and it ain't legal during duck season!)

B_Koes · « **Reply #10 on:** June 08, 2006, 12:42:52 PM »

Quote from: nomad

BK,

Drover's right about that. Any set trigger will increase lock time (assuming that you consider lock time to be the time from 'trigger break to shot' and not 'striker release to shot') because they all work on similar principals: The trigger, when set, kicks off a spring-loaded 'dog' that hits the sear and that releases the striker. That takes longer. (That's a VERY simplified explanation.)

That said, set triggers have been used for years on Free Rifles and Free Pistols (although now out of favor) and on lots of other precision firearms for some very fine results. (Ask some of the Schuetzen guys!) I can't agree with Drover that a set trigger is a handicap -- under the right conditions and in the hands of someone who understands one.

Thanks nomad...that explains it for me. Sounds exactly like what goes on inside the T/C Contender. I can see how that would greatly affect lock time.

I guess my next question is how much does lock time really affect the practical accuracy that can be obtained by an offhand hold. Granted this is likely a very individualized thing, but I wonder if anyone has tried to study the coorelation between lock time and group sizes. I'm nowhere close to an expert, but it would seem likely that it would be insignificant.

dave imas · « **Reply #11 on:** June 08, 2006, 01:18:34 PM »

BK,

Let me make this answer as simple as possible because even i can get this one right. until you are a pretty top level shooter, lock time doesn't matter. and if/when you learn to follow thru REALLY well, lock time becomes less significant. follow-thru will save your butt on less than optimally places shots far more often than lock time. I'm not saying i don't want the fastest lock time i can get... just saying that if i have to choose, i choose follow-thru.

another way of putting it is that lock time may save your bacon every now and again but follow-thru will make you a better shooter so you won't need your bacon saved as often.

nomad · « **Reply #12 on:** June 08, 2006, 01:55:03 PM »

When I was instructing, I taught my students about The Superior Pilot.
He's the guy who uses his superior judgement.
So he doesn't have to demonstrate his superior skills.
In order to save his superior ass!

Dave has explained the need for technique over equipment very well... :wink:

nomad · « **Reply #13 on:** June 08, 2006, 02:02:22 PM »

BK,

You're very right about the TCs.
In fact, years ago when set triggers were proscribed in silhouette, I mentioned that that rule made the TCs illegal because that's what they were. A LOT of guys jumped on that because they thought that set triggers always resulted in very light pulls. In fact, a set trigger is any trigger that is 'cocked' (set) separately from the striker/hammer.
If the CZs could be gotten TO 2 pounds when set, they would be OK for the game with the set mechanism functional -- but they can't get that high in set mode...at least according to their tech people.