Author Topic: Two ways of making barrels, are both good?  (Read 1077 times)

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Offline entsminger

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Two ways of making barrels, are both good?
« on: May 23, 2006, 01:50:41 AM »
Well I actually learned something yesterday about cannon manufacturing so I though I'd pass it on to anyone like me who is trying to figure out "how them boys make those cannons".
  It seems that some manufacturers when making say a 8 inch 1861 siege mortar barrel or other barrels , cast their barrel with bore already hollowed out , for lack of a more technical term, and some cast their barrels solid and then bore or mill out the bore and trunions etc, on a huge lathe or milling machine. One maker says that they pretty much cast their 8 inch mortar barrels and do very little if any milling to finish it up . They must be very good at casting?? while others mill the heck out of their barrels removing almost tons of iron from the rough casting. Which way is better I don't have a clue but I would guess the milled way would be more accurate but in the end is it really that much better? Any opinions? Are both ways good?

  Scott

Offline Double D

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Two ways of making barrels, are both good?
« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2006, 05:30:32 AM »
Well if you  have the machines get the one as cast.   You will still have to do the finish work yourself....bore, muzzle and trunnions. They still will need machined. That gun is not ready to shoot as cast.  

The cast solid would be a better since any imperfections in the casting are most likely to be in the center that is milled out.  The one that has the bore will be more likely to have imperfections in the wall of the gun.

Get the one that has all the mill work done.

Offline GGaskill

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Two ways of making barrels, are both good?
« Reply #2 on: May 23, 2006, 08:33:15 AM »
... cast their barrel with bore already hollowed out , for lack of a more technical term ...
The technical term is "cored" or "with a core", the core being the part of the mould that creates the cavity.  Casting a short barreled mortar is quite different from casting a long barreled cannon.  Because the mortar is so short and its bore is large with respect to its length, the core can be made quite robust and it will not deflect when the casting is poured.  Because the walls are relatively thinner compared to a solid casting, the shrinkage problem is lessened because the metal solidifies more quickly, so you shouldn't get shrinkage defects the way you do at the center of a solid casting.

Modern casting methods allow casting to near net size so casting way oversize and machining to final size is a choice, not necessarily the only way.  Since you name no names in your post, I would say that manufacturer reputation is more important than manufacturing details.

Looking at the pictures of the larger cast iron mortars makes me think that they generally were not machined overall on the outside.  I would think that only the trunnions, the bore and the vents were machined with the rest left as cast.  Most of the 13" mortars appear to have a muzzle band but upon close examination, the band appears to be a narrow strip that was machined, probably so the barrel could be held for boring, and the rest of the outside is "as cast."
GG
“If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart; if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain.”
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Offline Squire Robin

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Two ways of making barrels, are both good?
« Reply #3 on: May 23, 2006, 12:10:11 PM »
Bored cannon were more accurate, more expensive and less likely to be dumped because of bore imperfections. Look on the ends of the trunnions for marks to show it had been dome the hard way  :eek:


Offline lightning

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Finishing Cast Iron Mortar
« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2006, 04:18:57 PM »
I just bought a coehorn mortar from Hern Iron Works with the intention of giving it a smooth finish and painting it bronze colored.  I am a hobby woodworker and have all of those tools but only have the very basic metal working tools,, i.e. grinders, mig welder, torch etc.  After 3 days of grinding and sanding, and still not having the finish I would like, I agree that if you don't have the right tools then be satisfied with the finish out of the mold or buy the more expensive turned barrels.  I am very pleased with the Hern Mortar just not with my machining skills.  The finish it came with would have been fine for painting black.

On a little bit different note, does anyone know where I can find free mortar base plans on the internet?  If I build a British style base, with the elevation screw, does anyone have any ideas where I could find a brass faucet handle I could use for that purpose?  Or where to find or how to make the handles for the Union style base if I go that route?

Offline GGaskill

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Two ways of making barrels, are both good?
« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2006, 07:50:24 PM »
I'm not sure what you mean by "British style" base.  There is a thread on the board that shows a pink(!) British Coehorn (I think it was called a saltern, try that in the search function, or try coeharn) but it didn't have an elevation screw.  There is also a thread about using faucet handles for elevation screw handles.  Try "brass and faucet and handle" in the search key and you should get that thread.
GG
“If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart; if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain.”
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Offline entsminger

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Good points
« Reply #6 on: May 25, 2006, 04:05:03 AM »
I can see the benefits of the solid cast mortar barrel being milled such as better accuracy of bore and trunions and the weaker elements of the metal ending up in the center bore area which would be milled out.
  On the other hand the work and equipment involved in hoisting and handling a huge hunk of iron like a 1200 pound 8 inch or 1900 pound 10 inch rough cut barrel would be enormous compared to casting the core method where little machining is needed except maybe some honing and minor finishing? I guess alot would depend on how good the foundry is at dealing with molds etc.
  I believe Hern Iron works does their 8 inch siege mortar the core method where little maching is required after pouring and from what I hear their mortars are good? Can't find anyone yet who shoots one? Others like the Fredericksons of Minnesota rough cast their 8 and 10 inch mortar barrels solid and machined out the bore, trunions etc. On their 10 inch they started out with 3000 pounds of rough barrel shaped iron and milled it down to 1900. They shoot theirs all the time and probably win contests but boy their way really sounds like alot of work but then they do all the machining in their own shop so they can afford it. Lucky guys to work in that kind of shop!
  I did read somewhere that way back when they did the bore on the big 13 inchers they used the same method as the rodman process with a water cooled jacket in the core when it was poured. I've often wondered about that rim on the muzzle on the big 13 inchers so I'm guessing What George said about a way to hold the barrel while boring is right!
 I really enjoy learning the process of making these cannons. Thanks guys!!

  Scott

Offline Double D

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Two ways of making barrels, are both good?
« Reply #7 on: May 25, 2006, 05:19:12 AM »
The core method still needs machining. Dealing with metal that big it isn't going t matter if it's core or solid.  You still have to set the core up in the lathe and machine the bore true then hone and polish.   Then you have to turn the muzzle off square.  And you still will need to true the trunnions.
   
If you are going to do that you might as well use cast solid and not have to worry about inclusions and such in the bore wall.  

There might be a reason you can't find any one using a Hern tube.  Hern is out west and there aren't as many shooters out there.  You might try contacting the Casper shoot folks they might have some Hern Gun shooters.

Offline Double D

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Re: Good points
« Reply #8 on: May 25, 2006, 05:28:18 AM »
Quote from: entsminger
I believe Hern Iron works does their 8 inch siege mortar the core method where little maching is required after pouring and from what I hear their mortars are good? Can't find anyone yet who shoots one? ... Scott


What???  You hear they good, but you can't find anyone who shots one?

Offline entsminger

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You're right DD
« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2006, 08:46:29 AM »
I guess you're right DD. I really can't say Hern 8 inch mortars are good because I haven't talked to anyone who ownes one. I guess I arrived at that dumb conclusion as I have heard good things about Hern cannons in general and as someone said earlier, think of how good the manufacturers reputation is. I talked to their rep. and he said they do little if any finishing up like trueing trunions etc, on their 8 inch mortar after casting but maybe as a salesman he really doesn't know?
  I guess I was just hoping that Herns would be of quality and safe as I'll be lucky if I can ever afford one of theirs which is around $6000 for barrel and carriage much less the other ones out there which were machined and are substancially much more expensive.
  The only folks I have heard of who actually shoot 8 inchers at competitions are either the Fredericksons and their home made mortars or lucky owners of origional pieces like Charlie Smithgall.
  I'm waiting for a quote from Steen cannons on them making an 8 or 10 inch siege mortar barrel out of Ductile iron and they do machine and bore out theirs. It'll probably be a fortune??
  I just got a several thousand dollar bonus at work ( employee of the year) and was hoping to put that towards a barrel but I know if I don't act soon it'll get spent on groceries and bills.
  By the way, I still am working on my propane tank 13 inch mortar.
  Thanks again guys!!

  Scott